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Author Topic:   Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 287 of 330 (872623)
02-29-2020 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by PaulK
02-29-2020 12:38 AM


What makes a Sign a Sign
Your interpretation of the birds is certainly squishy if it goes anywhere beyond the wars of the last few years - and you did by citing it as evidence that Pope Francis is the AntiChrist. And it is quite reasonable to conclude that your signs aren’t signs.
Yes, but I didn't connect the birds to any event, just to the Pope himself. I hadn't thought of it at the time but in the study of the Tribulation period the Antichrist is represented as the first horse when the first seal is opened, the white horse which brings a false peace to the world. In the book of Daniel the Antichrist is interpreted as making a covenant with Israel which he will break at the midpoint of the seven years. Also, the white horse is immediately followed by the red horse of the second seal which represents war, its rider said to be given the power "to take peace from the Earth." All images of peace broken, the Antichrist's peace. As I say I hadn't thought of this before, but it does fit those symbols in the Book of Revelation.
Lightning strikes and bird attacks have happened before and will happen again without any clear meaning to be found.
Sure and the time 7:06 comes around twice a day too. However we do only get 2013 once and that's it. Got to wait a while for the next year with 13 in it.
HOWEVER, of course all these things happen naturally, but people commented on the timing of them, that's what's unusual. The date and time of Francis' election was unusual, even the seagull sitting on the chimney was unusual -- people commented on that. The lightning hitting St. Peter's was unusual -- and people commented on that too. It's the timing that takes all these things out of the ordinary and gives them meaning as signs.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 288 of 330 (872625)
02-29-2020 9:50 PM


One of the Seven Heads was Slain and Came Back to life
So what is that all about? if the seven heads represent kingdoms it would be the Roman Empire that was slain and came back to life. But elsewhere it is a man who is identified as dying and coming back to life. So MacArthur was speculating about that.
Some have interpreted it as the Protestant Reformation's killing the power that the RCC had had over Europe. That would fit the idea of a kingdom's being killed, or an empire, and the Reformers saw the RCC as the revived Roman Empire, or actually the continuation of it.
But MacArthur points out that it is a man who dies and comes back to life. I forget where that is in scripture at the moment. So he speculates that the Antichrist could be killed during the early part of the Tribulation and come back to life. But he doesn't believe that's possible under Satan's power so he isn't sure of that way of looking at it.
But I have the odd advantage of having seen Buzsaw's thread here, which I mentioned before in this thread, about two people who were actually dead but possessed by a demon that made them seem alive, one a Hindu religious practitioner, the other the witch/shaman of a tribe somewhere. So to my mind that is a real possibililtiy. If the Antichrist dies, either by violence or by natural causes, he can "come back to life" by Satan's possessing his body. According to Buzsaw's accounts people actually think such possessed bodies are alive. That was all news to me but I accept it and think that could happen with the Antichrist too. In any case he does have to be possessed by Satan, that's clear anyway, because it's really Satan who is ruling the world, something he's always wanted to do, and demanding worship too, the other thing he's always wanted to have.
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..
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 289 of 330 (872627)
03-01-2020 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Faith
02-29-2020 9:50 PM


Satan's Day in the Limelight, in the seat of power, in the place of God
The more I think about it the more it really makes sense that the Antichrist must be possessed by Satan, that it must be Satan who acts rather than the man. Perhaps the man IS dead, though I'm not sure that's crucial to the point. The point is that this is Satan's hour, this is when he gets to be as God, which has been hia ambition from the beginning, the very reason he fell in the first place. Then when he acquired the rule of humanity and planet Earth he set up his demons as the various gods of the various tribes all over the world, but did he ever get his chance to be God with any of us? The Satanists certainly made and make him their god. There is a whole trible of Satanists somewhere in the Middle East I think. But we've had our own in the West, such as Alistair Crowley, celebrated on one of the Beatles' albums. Somehow people do manage to hate the beautiful Christ and prefer Satan to Him. Well, sin IS alluring, but to THAT extent? I guess so.
But I digress. the point is that the Abomination of Desolation has to be Satah himself presenting himself as God and demanding worship. From the Antichrist's body no doubt, whether living or dead, but it's important I think to know it's not the man doing it, but Satan himself, finally having his day. The Protestant Reformers, Luther in particular of course, identified the Pope as "sitting in the Temple presenting himself as God" already, as simply a function of his very position as Pope, called the "head of the Church" which is one of Christ's titles. That's enough to make him the Antichrist as the Reformers knew. From that point of view we don't have to wait for him to be revealed, since he's already been revealed, at the Reformation. But people have forgotten. They are now looking for another Antichrist.
Is the blasphemy of the Abomination of Desolation what triggers the worst of the judgments of God? The second half of the Tribulation period IS known as the Great Tribulation and people are warned of its terrors and woes in Revelation and by angels.
Back to the study then to see what MacArthur says about these things..
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Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 288 by Faith, posted 02-29-2020 9:50 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 291 of 330 (872646)
03-01-2020 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by frako
03-01-2020 5:14 AM


Re: Satan's Day in the Limelight, in the seat of power, in the place of God
So Trump is an adulterer like Kennedy and Clinton and Johnson. If that's a disqualification for the Presidency then all those former Presidents should be impeached in retrospect. Besides, they all committed their adulteries while in office, but there is no hint of that with Trump.
He does not put himself above the law, what's been happening is that the Democrats keep making up laws to accuse him of violating, turning noncriminal acts into crimes.
Nobody treats Trump as a god, he's regarded as "one of us," that is why he is so popular, that and his caring about "us," working tirelessly to fulfill the promises he made, which the Democrats clearly do not.
The hatred the Left has for Trump is almost supernatural.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 293 of 330 (872655)
03-01-2020 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by PaulK
03-01-2020 12:55 PM


Re: Satan's Day in the Limelight, in the seat of power, in the place of God
Actually some of us did change our minds. I started out thinking I couldn't vote for Trump because of his lifestyle, the adulteries etc., but it was his policies that made me change my mind. He was for all the things most evangelicals are for, and that made his personal sins irrelevant, as they should be. The alternative was a corrupt person nobody could stomach at all, and Trump has turned out to be well deserving of our trust as he has worked continually for all the things he promised.
Nobody is saying his record is perfect, but he continues to work and eventually the things he hasn't yet accomplished may well be accomplished. Meanwhile what he has already accomplished in keeping his promises Is laudable, beyond what most politicians do, far beyond.
there is no compar4ison between the hatred toward Trump and that for Obama. I don't even think hate describes how Obama was treated at all. His policies were strenuously opposed by many on the right. But he had the media completely on his side, while Trump has the media completely against him. THAT's an extreme difference. Trump really is hated in some personal way. Obama's policies were abhorred but not himself.
AbE: The hatred of Obama that is always being compared with the hatred of Trump is isolated instances, completely out of proportion with the blanket media blitz of hatred for Trump.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 295 of 330 (872672)
03-01-2020 11:40 PM


Who is The False Prophet, the Beast from the Earth?
Besides John MacArthur I've listened to some of the teachers at Jan Markell's Understanding the Times Radio, on the subject of the Antichrist. They all have a picture of a charming but evil man who will rule over the whole world, but they certainly don't have a Pope in mind, rather a much younger man, handsome, etc. As I listen to it I simply hear the RCC itself with its worldwide reach as the global Empire over which he rules, that would no doubt be extended in the time of his rule. Islam also has to have a part in this picture but I'm not sure how. The Pope has had discussions with top Muslim leaders so there is some rapprochement between the religions. Islam of course replaced the Eastern part of Christendom as a result of Mohammed's murderous conversion techniques, which occurred about the same time as the Bishop of Rome became Universal Bishop and therefore Pope, inaugurating the RCC that became the political as well as religious institution in Europe that it was at the time of the Reformation, which seriously undercut its power in the world.
But that's the wound to one of the seven heads of the beast that represents both the Antichrist and the Roman Empire in Revelation 13, that will be healed at the revival of this Empire in the last days. It is still possible, as MacArthur conjectures, that the Antichrist himself will somehow die and come back to life to fulfill this prophecy, which leads him to further conjectures about how Satan might bring about this miraculous "resurrection" through various subterfuges. Thanks to the thread Buzsaw posted that I keep mentioning in this regard, my own conjecture is that the "resurrection" would be Satan's possession of the dead body of this man. As I've said, I never knew it was possible for a demonic spirit to give a believable semblance of life to a corpse, never even crossed my mind, until I read Buzsaw's OP about two such possessed corpses who had not had any food or water for years, and were regarded as living people.
So that's my own thought about that part of the prophecy. But there's still a problem with the identity of another personality, a second Beast, this one rising from the Earth as the Antichrist Beast rose from the Sea. This one has one head with horns like a lamb, but speaks like a dragon. He's called the False Prophet and his role is to preach that the Antichrist should be worshipped, and an image that is created, an idol of the Antichrist. I don't have all this straight in my head yet, and the reason I bring it up is that I don't have much of an idea who this False Prophet might be. But from what I've heard of the teachers on this subject it's not clear to them either. Sometimes I think maybe he is the Pope and the Antichrist is more of a Hitler type who is unknown at this time, but what keeps me from that idea is that the 666 is given to identify the Antichrist, not the False Prophet, and that number is derivable from a title of the Pope, "Vicarivs Filii Dei." That leads me to think the False Prophet has to be the unknown who will arise at the end.
Perhaps we won't be able to identify these personalities before they appear on the world stage, and then it will be those going through the Tribulation after the Church has been raptured, who will identify them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 297 of 330 (872716)
03-03-2020 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by PaulK
03-02-2020 12:12 AM


Demon Possession of Dead people.
Well, I'll post Buzzie's OP again. It's Message 1.
He starts with a Fox News report about a Hindu man who hadn't eaten or drunk anything for 66 years which reminded Buz of the story of a missionary to a remote tribe in New Guinea where the witch who ran things was 160 years old and similarly had not eaten or drunk anything for many years.
The missionary decided to fast and pray for three days to confront what he knew would have to be a demon possessing her, but when he did she fell down dead, and he understood that to mean that the demon had been possessing her dead body all along. That is of course why she didn't need to eat or drink anything. Same then with the Hindu.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 298 of 330 (872717)
03-03-2020 5:18 AM


The Roman/Babylonish Religion of the Tribulation period
As I keep listening to MacArthur's studies of the Book of Revelation, especially his talk on Revelation 17 it's clear that the Roman Church is going to have a big part in the formation of the end times world religion. The role of the "Virgin Mary" comes up in this connection, making me wonder if she figures in these scenarios somewhere.
Anyway, here's where MacArthur on how the RCC has to be the main form of the world religion of the last days.
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.
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Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 300 of 330 (872719)
03-03-2020 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by PaulK
03-03-2020 5:38 AM


Re: Demon Possession of Dead people.
Oh I don't expect you to accept anything I say about anything. Maybe someday you won't be able to avoid it.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 303 of 330 (872758)
03-03-2020 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by Tangle
03-03-2020 2:17 PM


Re: Demon Possession of Dead people.
Thing is, I know demon possession of living people is real, all this adds is the idea that dead people could be possessed.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 307 of 330 (872766)
03-03-2020 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by PaulK
03-03-2020 3:48 PM


Re: Demon Possession of Dead people.
It's either a fraud or the guy was a corpse. I believe the missionary story so I have no reason not to believe the Hindu story. If you see the Antichrist dead and then see him alive again, which interpretation are you going for?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 308 of 330 (872767)
03-03-2020 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Phat
03-03-2020 3:45 PM


Re: Demon Possession of Dead people.
Too much to read I'm afraid. Can you quote the most important part or just paraphrase it for me? Thanks.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 312 of 330 (872777)
03-04-2020 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by Tangle
03-03-2020 11:16 PM


Re: Demon Possession of Dead people.
Study all you like, the only delusion would be thinking I'm delusional just because I believe something you have a prejudice against believing.
Thing is, if an evil person such as the Antichrist has a sword run through him or is shot in the head or suffers some other fatal event, and falls down dead, and all the people around say he's dead, and then he suddenly comes back to life, my guess would be a demon possessed his dead body. I suppose you can assume some kind of trickery if you like and that's MacArthur's interpretation too since he knows Satan can't bring a person back to life. I won't be around to form an opinion from the TV coverage, but you probably will.

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