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Author Topic:   Morality without God is impossible
Phat
Member
Posts: 16054
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 46 of 306 (872727)
03-03-2020 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
03-03-2020 8:29 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
So how are you going to test the "Source" when the book is full of many sources?
How do you construct a God whom you can believe in when you are presented with so many different characters?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 8:29 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:17 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 48 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 10:21 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16054
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 47 of 306 (872728)
03-03-2020 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
03-03-2020 10:12 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
By the way, I have been listening to a Bible teacher who has, in fact read the Bible and who talks about Morality and God.
Dr.Joseph Garwood On Morality

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:12 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 10:21 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 48 of 306 (872729)
03-03-2020 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
03-03-2020 10:12 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

How do you construct a God whom you can believe in when you are presented with so many different characters?

Think Phat. People created each of those Gods. People have created thousands of Gods. God(s) and god(s) exist as long as there are believers in that God or god.

The answer is that you understand that GOD, if GOD exists is NOT any of the Gods or gods we have created.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:38 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 49 of 306 (872730)
03-03-2020 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
03-03-2020 10:17 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Another Proof Texter. Bare links?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:17 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:29 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16054
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 50 of 306 (872732)
03-03-2020 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
03-03-2020 10:21 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
I dont have access to transcripts from which to quote. I will show you a bit more about Dr.Garwood, however.
Cross & Crown Church Sermons
About Dr.Garwood:
Dr. Jason Garwood has spent his career seeking to both understand and apply the Biblical worldview to every single area of life. His aim is to help pastors and churches to be better equipped to engage in the Great Commission by teaching Christians how to find their individual purpose in the Kingdom of God and learn how to identify and respond to cultural idols.
Jason is the author of several books, including Reconstructing the Heart, Have Yourself an Eschatological Christmas, and The Politics of Humanism (forthcoming);
He has written articles for various outlets and blogs at jasongarwood.com;
He is a co-host of Cross & Crown Radio;
He has preached and lectured internationally, exposing the underling errors and problems with anti-biblical worldviews, applying the Scripture to topics such as: government education, abortion, the drug war, immigration, and vaccines; and
You can find him at college campuses, high schools, and political meetings and events seeding the gospel of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ.
He has been married to his wife, Mary, for 13 years;
They have three children;
He makes his home in Warrenton, Virginia.

You likely will label him disdainfully as "another Biblical Christian" but he has read and studied the Bible at least as much as you have. I heard a couple of his sermons and liked them. They made sense.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 10:21 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 11:01 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16054
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 51 of 306 (872734)
03-03-2020 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
03-03-2020 10:21 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
The answer is that you understand that GOD, if GOD exists is NOT any of the Gods or gods we have created.
Great. So then, how do you believe in this "GOD"? Traditionally, we have come to know GOD through the character and life of His Son, Jesus Christ. We study scriptural precepts as to how best to approach the challenges of life. We use logic, reason, and reality, but we also have a desire to know God as best as we can. If, as you claim, none of our created Gods are correct, you impose on us no method, means, or opportunity to get to somewhat know the One whom we worship. You have seemingly gotten around that by simply creating and answering a charge--a way to live your life intentionally and honorably through doing what Jesus said to do. Fine, great even. Surely at least some Episcopals believe that Jesus is alive in our hearts and minds today. Whenever I ask you, all I get are more questions. You are a man with limitless questions and few answers.

I hit this same roadblock with ringo. He always has stated that the message requires no messenger. This contrasts sharply with what I was taught of the importance of knowing God. In fact, your entire worldview suggests that it is impossible. Perhaps this is why you always taught your students to throw Him away. I prefer listening to Dr.Garwood, who arrives at no such similar conclusion.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 10:21 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 10:47 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19720
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 52 of 306 (872735)
03-03-2020 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
03-02-2020 5:11 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

The fact is, they were Theo-centric.


Paul disagreed with you. He said that even the Gentiles know right from wrong, with or without "God's law".

Phat writes:

Your problem is that you view these events from a human-centric perspective.


That isn't a problem; it's the solution.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 5:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19720
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 53 of 306 (872736)
03-03-2020 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
03-02-2020 7:19 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

While the ideas about God were written by humans, God the concept is Himself Creator of all things---including humans.


All concepts - including God - are conceived by humans.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 7:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 11:04 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19720
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 54 of 306 (872737)
03-03-2020 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
03-03-2020 10:38 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

I hit this same roadblock with ringo. He always has stated that the message requires no messenger.


That isn't quite right. The message requires no specific messenger. Any messenger will do.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 55 of 306 (872739)
03-03-2020 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
03-03-2020 10:29 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

I heard a couple of his sermons and liked them. They made sense.

Consider that. What does that have to do with anything beyond confirmation bias?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:29 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 11:09 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16054
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 56 of 306 (872740)
03-03-2020 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by ringo
03-03-2020 10:42 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
We have no proof of this. As you once argued with Stile, there may be a "place" we've overlooked or not examined. Your "all" is tentative at best.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 10:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 11:10 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16054
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 57 of 306 (872741)
03-03-2020 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
03-03-2020 11:01 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
One man's confirmation bias is another man's search for contrary points of view.

I do search for points of view which support, rather than challenge yours, but I find your type of thinking scarce on the internet. You seem to fit in with atheists better than you do believers. For the sake of this basic argument, I will concede that I personally believe that morality is our responsibility--not Gods.

My argument is to support the basic idea that anything is impossible without God.

Unbelievers would protest, of course.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 11:01 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 11:26 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19720
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 58 of 306 (872742)
03-03-2020 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
03-03-2020 11:04 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

We have no proof of this. As you once argued with Stile, there may be a "place" we've overlooked or not examined. Your "all" is tentative at best.


I said in Message 53, "All concepts - including God - are conceived by humans." That has nothing to do with the reality of God or whether we might some day find evidence of God.

You said in Message 40, "While the ideas about God were written by humans, God the concept is Himself Creator of all things---including humans." The concept is human imagination, period. Whether or not there is a God, whether or not we ever find evidence of Him, the concept is entirely made up by humans.

If we ever did find evidence of God, our concept of Him would likely change a lot.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 11:04 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 11:32 AM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 59 of 306 (872743)
03-03-2020 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
03-03-2020 11:09 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

My argument is to support the basic idea that anything is impossible without God.

But you never present an argument, only repeat your beliefs.

What does the actual evidence show?

Is there any evidence that shows atheists are less moral than Christians?

Is there any evidence that shows those who deny Jesus was God are less moral than Christians?

Is there any evidence that shows Muslims are less moral than Christians?

Is there any evidence that shows Buddhists are less moral than Christians?

Is there any evidence that shows Hindus are less moral than Christians?

Is there any evidence that shows Taoists are less moral than Christians?

Is there any evidence that shows Satanists are less moral than Christians?

Is there any evidence that shows Non-Trinitarian Christians are less moral than Trinitarian Christians?

What does the evidence show?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 11:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 11:30 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16054
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 60 of 306 (872744)
03-03-2020 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
03-03-2020 11:26 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Is there any evidence that God exists regardless of what people believe about Him?

Should a lack of evidence be any grounds for rethinking one's worldview?

Is there any evidence that Christian belief and thinking have influenced the world more so in a good way than a bad way?

What does the evidence show?


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 11:26 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 11:47 AM Phat has not replied

  
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