Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 257 of 330 (872493)
02-28-2020 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
02-28-2020 6:06 AM


While it may be objective fact that a crow and a gull attacked a dove released by the Pope it is not objectively a sign, let alone a sign that he is the AntiChrist.
Even if it were taken as a sign it has no clear and objective meaning.
That is obvious. Who could possibly deny it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 6:06 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 6:44 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 3:51 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 260 of 330 (872496)
02-28-2020 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
02-28-2020 6:44 AM


quote:
The attack on the doves could be dismissed as coincidence of course, but that both of them were attacked the moment they left the Vatican window by two different birds is really rather amazing
You may think so, but that does nothing to clarify the meaning.
quote:
The doves were to symbolize peace, a sort of prayer for peace in the world, and the crow and the seagull immediately attacked them as if to say "nope, no peace, you don't get to have your peace, we'll kill your peace." Not really much wiggle room in the interpretation it seems to me.
So if it is a sign it’s more likely related to the war in Syria.
quote:
What I meant was that the facts themselves are clear and objective. That is they are precise and they are real and they are not vague or ambiguous
And my point is that that isn’t important when the meaning - if any - is far from clear. Even your previous signs of the Rapture included things that were clear in your way - like the preacher talking about Rose Hashanah (which almost certainly was due to Rosh Hashanah being close).
quote:
And scoffing at the calculation of the 666 can only reflect an unthinking automatic dismissal because it's clear as a bell how it is derived and what it means
I’m scoffing at how you derive it. And the fact that there really is no reason to think that the Tribulation is close anyway, which would mean that Pope Francis is not the AntiChrist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 6:44 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 277 of 330 (872554)
02-28-2020 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Faith
02-28-2020 3:51 PM


The point of mentioning the bird thing was that your claim of objectivity was greatly compromised. The others are also subjective in both their significance and meaning. The announcement of the election at 19:06 could easily be a coincidence, unlucky 13 is pure superstition and I’m sure that there have been lightning strikes at St Peter’s before and after.
Let us also note that Francis has been Pope for nearly 7 years without anything happening. As you say he’s old now, and could die or retire in a few years.
And just one more question. What makes you think that a Pope could possibly use 666 as a personal symbol? That is the main Biblical significance of the number - and even you must admit that Catholicism is Christian to the point where that is quite unthinkable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 3:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 4:29 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 280 of 330 (872557)
02-28-2020 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Faith
02-28-2020 4:29 PM


quote:
Oh nonsense. The attack by the birds was also an objective fact, and being objective facts is all I claimed for them all, in contrast with Nostradamus' vague and ambiguous stuff.
The attack was objective fact. But that really doesn’t help you, since it is only subjectivity that assigns any importance to it at all - other than as an indication releasing white doves in Rome is a bad idea. That wasn’t the first problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 4:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 5:22 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 285 of 330 (872584)
02-29-2020 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Faith
02-28-2020 5:22 PM


quote:
You would make "subjective" any interpretation of anything, which makes the word meaningless
I wouldn’t go quite that far - although others would - but interpretation often does involve a degree of subjectivity. And your interpretation of the birds involves a good deal of subjectivity. And no, saying that doesn’t make the word meaningless. That’s just another absurdity that you made up.
quote:
An interpretation of a book of the Bible is subjective, but there has to be a correct interpretation nevertheless. Same with anything symbolic, or anything that must be interpreted.
Unless there is an objective way of determining which interpretation is correct - or at the least a very strong case - the subjectivity is inescapable. And in this case we cannot even objectively say that it was a sign or that it had any connection to the Tribulation at all.
quote:
You accomplish nothing by calling it "subjective."
On the contrary, I show that your claim of objectivity is meaningless.
quote:
And the interpretations I've put on all these events aren't at all squishy either, there just aren't any other ways to interpret these things, except of course to pretend they aren't symbolic at all, which would be the choice of most here I suppose.
Your interpretation of the birds is certainly squishy if it goes anywhere beyond the wars of the last few years - and you did by citing it as evidence that Pope Francis is the AntiChrist. And it is quite reasonable to conclude that your signs aren’t signs. Lightning strikes and bird attacks have happened before and will happen again without any clear meaning to be found. You offer mere superstition - much of it pagan. And if you want another example of subjectivity, choosing to read 19:06 as 6:66 pm is a subjective choice. It is not objectively correct - indeed it is an incorrect way of writing the time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Faith, posted 02-28-2020 5:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 02-29-2020 9:28 PM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 292 of 330 (872652)
03-01-2020 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Faith
03-01-2020 11:46 AM


Re: Satan's Day in the Limelight, in the seat of power, in the place of God
I don’t believe that anyone has suggested that Trump be impeached for adultery. It is notable, however, that many Evangelicals suddenly changed their minds about the issue of character when Trump was candidate.
quote:
He does not put himself above the law, what's been happening is that the Democrats keep making up laws to accuse him of violating, turning noncriminal acts into crimes.
The usual lying to deny Trump’s guilt. Really the things you - or your talk show hosts - make up.
quote:
Nobody treats Trump as a god, he's regarded as "one of us," that is why he is so popular, that and his caring about "us," working tirelessly to fulfill the promises he made, which the Democrats clearly do not.
How’s he doing on eliminating the deficit? Or providing a better alternative to the ACA? Or - and this should be easy - releasing his tax returns?
quote:
The hatred the Left has for Trump is almost supernatural
I’ve seen plenty examples of more extreme hate for Obama. I guess that must be really supernatural - even Satanic. No wonder you love it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 03-01-2020 11:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 03-01-2020 1:34 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 294 of 330 (872657)
03-01-2020 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Faith
03-01-2020 1:34 PM


Re: Satan's Day in the Limelight, in the seat of power, in the place of God
quote:
Actually some of us did change our minds. I started out thinking I couldn't vote for Trump because of his lifestyle, the adulteries etc., but it was his policies that made me change my mind. He was for all the things most evangelicals are for, and that made his personal sins irrelevant, as they should be
Let us just note that that realisation only turned up when it was convenient. Further, I think your real mistake was choosing adultery as the most important measure of character. There are worse issues with Trump.
quote:
Nobody is saying his record is perfect, but he continues to work and eventually the things he hasn't yet accomplished may well be accomplished. Meanwhile what he has already accomplished in keeping his promises Is laudable, beyond what most politicians do, far beyond.
Not really. Remember that he had a Republican Congress for the first half of his term and Republicans still hold the Senate.
His promises over the ACA are abandoned, he’s increased the deficit and seems to have no plans to even reduce it back to the level it was and he’s lied and is fighting hard in court to avoid releasing his tax returns.
quote:
there is no compar4ison between the hatred toward Trump and that for Obama
I’ll agree with that. Obama had it far worse.
quote:
I don't even think hate describes how Obama was treated at all. His policies were strenuously opposed by many on the right.
I’m not talking about the obstructionism. I’m talking about the conspiracy theories and the Citizen’s Grand Jury that was supposed to arrest him and the specious lawsuits intended to throw him out of office. Or even the ridiculous charge that he was a crypto-Muslim - which is serious when you consider the hatred of Islam in some parts of the Right.
quote:
But he had the media completely on his side, while Trump has the media completely against him. THAT's an extreme difference
But that doesn’t measure the magnitude of feeling at all. A lot of criticism - much of it deserved is hardly equivalent to claims that he plotted to detonate a nuclear device in the US. Or vigilantes planning to kidnap him.
quote:
Trump really is hated in some personal way. Obama's policies were abhorred but not himself.
No, there was a lot of personal hatred there. Though the hate for the ACA also reached levels of insanity rarely seen against Trump.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 03-01-2020 1:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 296 of 330 (872673)
03-02-2020 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Faith
03-01-2020 11:40 PM


Re: Who is The False Prophet, the Beast from the Earth?
Buzsaw was hardly a reliable source. So I’m not surprised that you trust him.
Islam, of course, will oppose the Beast. Worshipping statues is contrary to a well-known teaching of Islam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 03-01-2020 11:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 03-03-2020 4:53 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 299 of 330 (872718)
03-03-2020 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by Faith
03-03-2020 4:53 AM


Re: Demon Possession of Dead people.
So the story of your first possessed corpse has zero evidence of possession or being a corpse. The guy was probably just a Hindu faker (and no I don’t mean fakir).
The second is an anecdote that was over 30 years old when retold and second-hand at best. On top of Buzsaw’s unreliability. Not exactly good evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 03-03-2020 4:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 03-03-2020 5:48 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 301 of 330 (872720)
03-03-2020 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Faith
03-03-2020 5:48 AM


Re: Demon Possession of Dead people.
quote:
Oh I don't expect you to accept anything I say about anything.
And I don’t because I am honest and rational - as shown in my previous post.
quote:
Maybe someday you won't be able to avoid it.
Maybe someday you’ll have a torture squad, but I’m hardly about to uncritically believe you without duress. That would be highly irrational.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 03-03-2020 5:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 304 of 330 (872759)
03-03-2020 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Faith
03-03-2020 3:27 PM


Re: Demon Possession of Dead people.
And your evidence that the Hindu fake is dead and demonically possessed is ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 03-03-2020 3:27 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 3:45 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 306 of 330 (872763)
03-03-2020 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Phat
03-03-2020 3:45 PM


Re: Demon Possession of Dead people.
Does your article say anything at all about the Hindu who allegedly survives without food and water ? No ? Then it doesn’t answer the question, does it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 3:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Faith, posted 03-03-2020 3:56 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 309 of 330 (872769)
03-03-2020 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Faith
03-03-2020 3:56 PM


Re: Demon Possession of Dead people.
quote:
It's either a fraud or the guy was a corpse
Or the guy was being kept alive by supernatural means. Once you let the supernatural in you can’t arbitrarily limit it to the effects you want.
quote:
I believe the missionary story so I have no reason not to believe the Hindu story.
You’d have to be very gullible to believe an anecdote retold more than 30 years later from a guy who is happy to rewrite the Bible to pretend that he’s right. Don’t forget either that Buz fell for Ron Wyatt’s nonsense.
And again, even if you believe the Hindu story (when this is a known trick of fakes) it doesn’t say that he was dead at all. Don’t you think that the medics who supposedly confirmed his story would have noticed if he was ?
quote:
If you see the Antichrist dead and then see him alive again, which interpretation are you going for?
Well I’m not going to actually see him dead, am I? Even if it happened (it won’t). So I’m pretty unlikely to be convinced that he was dead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Faith, posted 03-03-2020 3:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 314 of 330 (872794)
03-04-2020 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by Faith
03-04-2020 3:39 AM


Re: Demon Possession of Dead people.
quote:
Study all you like, the only delusion would be thinking I'm delusional just because I believe something you have a prejudice against believing.
But we have better reasons for thinking that you are delusional, even in this thread. You think that the following is good reason to think that the man is a demon-possessed corpse.
Just tonight on Fox News it was announced that an old Hindu man has lived for 66 years without food or water. According to the source, this has been verified by medical doctors and people come to him to pay respect and reverence. The observers have determined that his energy comes from some metaphysical or spiritual power. The man himself attributes it to a certain goddess who he has been devoted to and worships.
Now the fact that this offers no real evidence that he was dead or possessed (and if he was dead the doctors really ought to have noticed) doesn’t seem to worry you. And yet you seem to think that your claim deserves to be believed (Message 300)
Further, according to the link Tangle posted in Message 302 even the Daily Mail was sceptical of the story. The doctors periodically examine the man but never release their data. And we know that similar cases have been fraud.
So, in all likelihood the man is just one of many Hindu fakes, and the evidence is certainly insufficient to say otherwise.
If you believe otherwise you are delusional. There is no doubt.
Edited by PaulK, : Fixed tag

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Faith, posted 03-04-2020 3:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024