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Author Topic:   Morality without God is impossible
Phat
Member
Posts: 15996
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 61 of 306 (872745)
03-03-2020 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
03-03-2020 11:10 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
OK you present a good case.

So would you then argue that morality with or without God is essentially the same thing?

Have we now proof that morality is a human responsibility?


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 11:10 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 11:48 AM Phat has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 62 of 306 (872748)
03-03-2020 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
03-03-2020 11:30 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

Is there any evidence that God exists regardless of what people believe about Him?

So far no one has ever presented such evidence.

Phat writes:

Should a lack of evidence be any grounds for rethinking one's worldview?

Absolutely. If your worldview is that you hit the target but there are no holes in the target, you definitely need to change your worldview. If your world view is that morality is impossible without the God you desire yet all the evidence shows that there is morality even within those who deny the God you desire then yes, you need to change your worldview.

Phat writes:

Is there any evidence that Christian belief and thinking have influenced the world more so in a good way than a bad way?

So far no one has ever been able to present support for that assertion.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 11:30 AM Phat has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19616
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 63 of 306 (872749)
03-03-2020 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
03-03-2020 11:32 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

So would you then argue that morality with or without God is essentially the same thing?


Would you argue that morality with or without unicorns is essentially the same thing?

Phat writes:

Have we now proof that morality is a human responsibility?


What does "proof" have to do with it? If humans are not moral, who will be?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

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 Message 61 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 11:32 AM Phat has taken no action

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8524
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 64 of 306 (872751)
03-03-2020 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
03-02-2020 7:19 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

But this is an assumption made by secular humanists. While the ideas about God were written by humans, God the concept is Himself Creator of all things---including humans.

So says a human.

God was testing Abraham, so the story goes. If human justice places God no higher of an authority than humans, your argument has merit. Critics would argue that God by definition represented the main authority in those times. Just as presidents enjoy diplomatic immunity for a season, so would God.

If someone claims that God ordered them to slay a bunch of innocent people, what do we do? Do we throw them in jail?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 7:19 PM Phat has seen this message

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4076
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 65 of 306 (872787)
03-04-2020 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by GDR
02-29-2020 8:46 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
GDR writes:

I am simply saying that if there is a moral intelligence that is responsible for our existence then there can be an absolute morality, but we can't know it for a fact.

And if such an absolute morality exists - it would be meaningless anyway.

Because we would all choose to decide to accept/agree with it or not individually - as this is how human morality functions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by GDR, posted 02-29-2020 8:46 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by GDR, posted 03-04-2020 7:31 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4076
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 66 of 306 (872788)
03-04-2020 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Dogmafood
03-01-2020 9:53 AM


Re: A Universal Morality
Dogmafood writes:

The behaviour of any individual actor is a result of their innate sense of self preservation and every choice made attempts to serve that goal.

Not true.

All you can really say is "It is possible to explain the behaviour of any individual actor as a result of their innate sense of self preservation and therefore show that every choice made attempts to serve that goal."

But, until you can read the minds of other people - you cannot say that just because an explanation possibly exists then it therefore MUST BE the explanation that an individual used.

I can choose to eat chocolate ice-cream because I need sugar to live.
I can choose to eat chocolate ice-cream because I had an experience in my childhood linking "good times" with "chocolate ice-cream."
I can choose to eat chocolate ice-cream just to spite Dogmafood.

These are 3 viable options.
Just because you see me eating chocolate ice-cream and you know that option 1 is valid - doesn't mean I actually used option 1 to choose to eat that chocolate ice-cream in that situation.

You're begging the question.

If this is true then the morality of any action can be determined by assessing how effectively the action served the goal. This would apply universally without exception.

Unfortunately, your premise is not true - and therefore cannot be applied at all, let alone universally.

I anticipate that someone will point out that there are plenty of immoral actions that serve self preservation of the individual but in every case these are short term benefits.

Un-required to show that your premise is not true.
Only idea required to show your premise is not true is to show that alternative motivations for "choice" can also validly exist - and that you are currently unable to positively identify between them without begging the question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Dogmafood, posted 03-01-2020 9:53 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Dogmafood, posted 03-04-2020 4:42 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4076
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 67 of 306 (872789)
03-04-2020 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
02-28-2020 4:20 AM


Tangle writes:

The difficulty appears to lie in the assertion by believers that we can't know what right and wrong is without there being a god to tell us. The question is why not?

It seems to me that their only reasoning is because they believe it so.

From everything I've ever seen - you're absolutely right.

All it takes to know right and wrong is the intelligence to ask the question (internally to one's self, even.)
That is the only "frame of reference" required.

Blind chance, God, the possibility of any "absolute morality" or "external morality" is all irrelevant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 4:20 AM Tangle has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8552
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 68 of 306 (872790)
03-04-2020 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by GDR
02-29-2020 8:46 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
GDR writes:

I am simply saying that if there is a moral intelligence that is responsible for our existence then there can be an absolute morality...

How does this work?

“if there is a moral intelligence...
then there can be an absolute morality“

This obviously circular but I can see no reason at all that a creator need be moral.

In fact it seems that if there is one, he is obviously amoral at best.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by GDR, posted 02-29-2020 8:46 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by GDR, posted 03-04-2020 7:40 PM Tangle has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 69 of 306 (872796)
03-04-2020 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Stile
03-04-2020 12:24 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
But, until you can read the minds of other people - you cannot say that just because an explanation possibly exists then it therefore MUST BE the explanation that an individual used.

I am referring to the most fundamental basis for making any choice or taking any action. There are a multitude of explanations that an actor might provide but they all trace back to the programmed desire for self preservation. Any choice that benefits the actor, in whatever way, attempts to serve the ultimate and fundamental goal of self preservation. We survive by making choices that benefit us. (This is probably why we evolved a brain in the first place and can make choices at all.)

My point is that if we all make decisions in the same way with the same machinery then there is a fundamentally common or universal element to our behaviour. Every moral code is a distillation of the results of all those previous choices made by members of the group. An attempt to enforce behaviour that benefits the group. The individual complies because the group is beneficial to them.

Every religion that ever existed was an attempt to codify the behaviour that was perceived to benefit the group and even though they are all different they have the same origin. Self preservation and reproduction.

So if there is a universal code of conduct it is to live long enough to breed. A couple of hundred thousand years later and we have the modern world with spiteful ice cream eaters and all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Stile, posted 03-04-2020 12:24 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Stile, posted 03-05-2020 1:42 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 70 of 306 (872806)
03-04-2020 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Stile
03-04-2020 12:15 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
Stile writes:

And if such an absolute morality exists - it would be meaningless anyway.

Because we would all choose to decide to accept/agree with it or not individually - as this is how human morality functions.


In many ways you are right. However, if there is an absolute morality then there is a moral source for it. If that is the case then it makes sense that we would want to understand as much about that source of morality as we can and what it means to our lives. One of the things that it would strongly suggest that there is an ultimate purpose to us holding to that morality.

If however, we are just a fortunate result of mindless processes then ultimately this world will come to an end and it will all have meant nothing, and so why worry about morality at all and just live in whatever manner suits us which may conform to that ultimate morality or not.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Stile, posted 03-04-2020 12:15 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by PaulK, posted 03-05-2020 12:02 PM GDR has replied
 Message 85 by Stile, posted 03-05-2020 2:02 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 71 of 306 (872807)
03-04-2020 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Tangle
03-04-2020 1:50 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
Tangle writes:

How does this work?

“if there is a moral intelligence...
then there can be an absolute morality“

This obviously circular but I can see no reason at all that a creator need be moral.

I don't agree that it is circular although I can see why you would say that. It morality is simply what any group makes it out to be then there is no absolute morality. I suggest that innately we know that we should live by the golden rule whether we actually adhere to it or not. It seems to me that is as close as to being universal as we can get. I suggest that it is evidence that there is a universal morality that exists outside of human experience.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2020 1:50 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2020 8:34 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8552
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 72 of 306 (872809)
03-04-2020 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by GDR
03-04-2020 7:40 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
GDR writes:

I don't agree that it is circular although I can see why you would say that.

More simply, it's a non-sequitur -
“if there is a moral intelligence...
then there can be an absolute morality“

The existence of a moral intelligence does not require there to be an absolute morality. In any case, I don't know what a moral intelligence would be.

It morality is simply what any group makes it out to be then there is no absolute morality.

There is no absolute morality. Can you demonstrate one?

I suggest that innately we know that we should live by the golden rule whether we actually adhere to it or not.It seems to me that is as close as to being universal as we can get. I suggest that it is evidence that there is a universal morality that exists outside of human experience.

That simply does not follow. Just because we have an emotion we call morality does not mean that there is therefore a morality outside our existence. We have an emotion called anger, is there therefore an anger outside our existence? Universal anger? You haven't even begun to make a link or an argument.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by GDR, posted 03-04-2020 7:40 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by GDR, posted 03-05-2020 11:37 AM Tangle has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 73 of 306 (872820)
03-05-2020 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Tangle
03-04-2020 8:34 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
Tangle writes:

The existence of a moral intelligence does not require there to be an absolute morality.

No but it would make it possible and even likely.

Tangle writes:

In any case, I don't know what a moral intelligence would be.

God, Yahweh, Allah etc.

Tangle writes:

There is no absolute morality. Can you demonstrate one?

The Golden Rule

Tangle writes:

That simply does not follow. Just because we have an emotion we call morality does not mean that there is therefore a morality outside our existence. We have an emotion called anger, is there therefore an anger outside our existence? Universal anger? You haven't even begun to make a link or an argument.

Morality isn't an emotion.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2020 8:34 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Taq, posted 03-05-2020 12:48 PM GDR has replied
 Message 81 by Tangle, posted 03-05-2020 1:11 PM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 74 of 306 (872822)
03-05-2020 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by GDR
03-04-2020 7:31 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
quote:
....if there is an absolute morality then there is a moral source for it

I don’t think that follows at all. If there was a truly absolute morality I don’t see that it needs a source. It’s not even clear that it could have a source. And if it did have a source why should it be something capable of being moral ?

Certainly morality existing is logically prior to being moral, so being moral can’t be a requirement to be the source.

I note that you later claim that the Golden Rule is an absolute moral rule but if it is, is it because it is some external rule or is it because it is fundamental to the idea of morality? I would say that to the extent it is, the latter is the case, which again needs no external source.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by GDR, posted 03-04-2020 7:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by GDR, posted 03-05-2020 12:23 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 75 of 306 (872824)
03-05-2020 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by PaulK
03-05-2020 12:02 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
PaulK writes:

I don’t think that follows at all. If there was a truly absolute morality I don’t see that it needs a source. It’s not even clear that it could have a source. And if it did have a source why should it be something capable of being moral ?

I'm simply saying that if there is a morality that exists outside of human existence then there needs to be a source for that. If however, there is no morality outside of human existence then morality is simply what any group or even individual decides it to be.

PaulK writes:

Certainly morality existing is logically prior to being moral, so being moral can’t be a requirement to be the source.

I'm sorry but I don't understand your point with this statement. If morality has to exist prior to being moral then doesn't it follow that the pre-existing morality would be consistent. If it is consistent then it follows that it is outside of human experience than then there must be a source for that.

PaulK writes:

I note that you later claim that the Golden Rule is an absolute moral rule but if it is, is it because it is some external rule or is it because it is fundamental to the idea of morality? I would say that to the extent it is, the latter is the case, which again needs no external source.

Mankind has always understood the Golden Rule and it has been in all societies going back at least to Buddha and in the book of Leviticus. Sure, we have seldom lived up to it but it has been the standard of how we should conduct ourselves as humans pretty much through recorded history.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by PaulK, posted 03-05-2020 12:02 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Taq, posted 03-05-2020 12:45 PM GDR has taken no action
 Message 79 by PaulK, posted 03-05-2020 1:02 PM GDR has taken no action

  
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