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Author | Topic: Morality without God is impossible | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: Of course, which is the point I was making.
Anyone can love sacrificially without thought of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next, particularly atheists. Anyone can behave sacrificially without thought of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next, particularly atheists. Anyone can do things sacrificially without thought of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next, particularly atheists.jar writes: But you don't know that. I believe that there is as it is the God meme silently woven into our consciousness that makes it possible.
No God is needed. And with atheists there is no god involved.jar writes: I disagree as do the Gospels.
It is the act, doing good, that is significant not the motivation or source or deity. jar writes: Truth matters. If God resurrected Jesus then the path that Jesus taught is more than relevant.
Christianity is a path. It is a chosen path. But it is not the right path or only path or best path or better path. jar writes: Exactly. Emeth served Tash and Aslan tells him that the things done that are good, even in the name of Tash were done for him, and evil done in the name of Aslan were done for Tash. (words to that effect without looking them up.)
Remember what Aslan says about the service that Emeth did in the name of Tash. jar writes: If you are looking at the physical effect of what happens then I agree. However as we see in Matthew 25 the sheep had no idea that they were doing it for a reward.
It is the acts that are significant and not the motivation. jar writes: However, as Christians we are to infect others with the God meme that calls us to self giving love. If when we do something positive for others but do it in order to receive praise from others then that is not likely to convince anyone of the human call to unselfish love.
Now, on the path called Christianity there are road signs that say, if you already got paid for the act don't expect to get paid again. But that is in the realm of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next and a separate subject. The acts though stand on their own regardless of motivation. The naked clothed are still clothed. The hungry fed are still fed. The homeless sheltered are still sheltered. the sick healed are still healed. The weak protected are still protected. You believe and I believe that we will get judged after death. But that is not significant until we die. But good done today, even for the worst reason is still good done today. jar writes: OK, but that isn't what made the sheep sheep.
The acts though stand on their own regardless of motivation. The naked clothed are still clothed. The hungry fed are still fed. The homeless sheltered are still sheltered. the sick healed are still healed. The weak protected are still protected. jar writes: That point is why I brought it up. Remember what Aslan says about the service that Emeth did in the name of Tash.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 376 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Anyone can behave sacrificially without thought of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next Certainly without conscious thought of personal reward but personal reward is at the heart of every choice to act.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
GDR writes: Truth matters. If God resurrected Jesus then the path that Jesus taught is more than relevant. But resurrection is pretty common in the Bible and we have wandered down that path many times before. I know you have your beliefs but that is not what I find actually written in the Bible. Nor is resurrection unique to Christianity. But regardless, it has NOTHING to do with morality or behavior.
GDR writes: If you are looking at the physical effect of what happens then I agree. However as we see in Matthew 25 the sheep had no idea that they were doing it for a reward. The sheep did not do it for a reward; what they thought is irrelevant.
GDR writes: However, as Christians we are to infect others with the God meme that calls us to self giving love. If when we do something positive for others but do it in order to receive praise from others then that is not likely to convince anyone of the human call to unselfish love. More word salad. If when we do something positive for others but do it in order to receive praise from others then that is not likely to convince anyone of the human call to unselfish love and if you look close, there is no God or God meme found in that or needed in that or that adds any value to what was done.
jar writes: The acts though stand on their own regardless of motivation. The naked clothed are still clothed. The hungry fed are still fed. The homeless sheltered are still sheltered. the sick healed are still healed. The weak protected are still protected. GDR writes: OK, but that isn't what made the sheep sheep. But that IS what made the sheep sheep. It was feeding and clothing and sheltering and comforting and protecting and ...
jar writes: Remember what Aslan says about the service that Emeth did in the name of Tash.GDR writes: That point is why I brought it up. The go back a reread it. I know you believe there is some god meme and that Christianity is somehow more than a chosen path but so far you have presented no reasoning that that it is or should be true. I actually agree with your belief but I also understand it is simply a belief and neither reasonable or rational or logical or based on any evidence.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Dammit, Jim! I'm an engineer, not a philosopher!
I never had no truck with philosophers. But this I remember hearing. Maybe it was Plato or some such dude (hard to tell them apart when they're all wearing the same bedsheets) . There's a color, Blue. Somewhere, there must exist some abstract concept, Blue, which is some kind of archetype or whatever which absolutely and completely embodied that entire concept of blueness. This entire jack-off/circle-jerk exercise about some kind of "absolute morality" is all the same. Complete and utter bullshit.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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GDR writes: Well if my arguments are species then yours are specious. Look, this is your statement if there is a moral intelligence...then there can be an absolute morality That can only be correct in meaningless sort of way because you can substitute anything for absolute morality in it if there is a moral intelligence...then there can be bananas Plus the intelligence need not be moral nor does it need to have morals we agree with. It's not any sort of useful argument.
I believe in a resurrected Jesus ....
We know what you believe, we're looking or valid argument supporting your belief.
They are attributes. Anger is an emotion - morality isn't.
Our sense of morality is a bloody emotion! It's a brain function, we can see it working just like we can identify the speech and sight and other functional areas of the brain we know where the emotions of empathy and compassion are. You’re denying facts, why?
quote: Moral Emotions - Ethics Unwrapped Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
When GDR said
if there is a moral intelligence... then there can be an absolute morality I supposed what he meant was more like If there is a universal moral intelligence that governs this universethen there can be an absolute morality. So, GDR, is that what you meant?And Tangle, what difference does it make to your thinking? Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: Resurrection into a new renewed physical existence is not the same thing as resuscitation into body that is still subject to decay. As you love to tell Phat - just read your Bible.
ut resurrection is pretty common in the Bible and we have wandered down that path many times before. I know you have your beliefs but that is not what I find actually written in the Bible. Nor is resurrection unique to Christianity. jar writes: Not in itself but it should make you want to pay attention to what Jesus had to say.
But regardless, it has NOTHING to do with morality or behavior. jar writes: That is the point. They were following the God meme and nudging them to follow the Golden Rule.
The sheep did not do it for a reward jar writes: Neither you nor I know whether that is true or not. It is belief. You seem to follow Descartes view of Christianity when he says,"I concluded never to accept anything for true which I did not clearly know to be such".
More word salad. If when we do something positive for others but do it in order to receive praise from others then that is not likely to convince anyone of the human call to unselfish love and if you look close, there is no God or God meme found in that or needed in that or that adds any value to what was done. jar writes: ... without thought of reward.
But that IS what made the sheep sheep. It was feeding and clothing and sheltering and comforting and protecting and ... jar writes: We all know that there is no hard evidence. Firstly I believe that the words of Jesus in the Bible accurately reflect, not His exact words but His fundamental message. On the philosophical side, it makes sense of the world I live in and my life. However, yes it is belief, and faith in that belief, that flows from believing in a theistic deity whose essence was embodied by Jesus. I know you believe there is some god meme and that Christianity is somehow more than a chosen path but so far you have presented no reasoning that that it is or should be true. I actually agree with your belief but I also understand it is simply a belief and neither reasonable or rational or logical or based on any evidence.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: I have done that in other threads.
We know what you believe, we're looking or valid argument supporting your belief. Tangle writes: This is a pointless discussion but when you read that quote it is clear that emotions impact our morality in a given situation. For example we might morally know that murder is wrong but while angry we might do it anyway. Our sense of morality is a bloody emotion! It's a brain function, we can see it working just like we can identify the speech and sight and other functional areas of the brain we know where the emotions of empathy and compassion are. You’re denying facts, why? That does not make morality an emotion.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
I would think that resuscitating the old chemicals would be more impressive. Resurrection into a new renewed physical existence is not the same thing as resuscitation into body that is still subject to decay."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: If there is a universal moral intelligence that governs this universethen there can be an absolute morality. So, GDR, is that what you meant? I was shown the error of my ways when I talked about a universal morality as we all know that different people have different views on what morality is. However, I might now say that f there is a universal moral intelligence that governs this universethen there can be an external morality that has an impact on our lives. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
GDR writes: Resurrection into a new renewed physical existence is not the same thing as resuscitation into body that is still subject to decay. As you love to tell Phat - just read your Bible. Nonsense.
GDR writes: That is the point. They were following the God meme and nudging them to follow the Golden Rule. Nonsense. There you go just making stuff up.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: If there is a universal moral intelligence that governs this universethen there can be an absolute moralityAnd Tangle, what difference does it make to your thinking? When I asked what a moral intelligence was, GDR said God so it becomes. If there is a god that governs this universethen there can be an absolute morality. This doesn't follow. First, why can't there be an absolute morality without god? Second this god could have a morality we didn't like, for example he could be the god of the Old Testament who is a total bastard. Third, what is an absolute morality anyway? Can you describe one? If there was one, how could free will exist? Fourth, we know that in fact our morality is relative, so ? Fifth, morality is actually a biological and social construct, god has nothing to do with itJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: The acts though stand on their own regardless of motivation. The naked clothed are still clothed. The hungry fed are still fed. The homeless sheltered are still sheltered. the sick healed are still healed. The weak protected are still protected.GDR writes: OK, but that isn't what made the sheep sheep. jar writes: Wait a minute! Are you (jar) telling us that sheep become sheep through their own effort and decisions? I suppose that would mean that goats decide to be goats. Maybe that does make sense. I hope not though. Why should I be responsible for my own human nature? Its Gods job to steer me in the direction I am to walk. But that IS what made the sheep sheep. It was feeding and clothing and sheltering and comforting and protecting and ...The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: This is a pointless discussion This is actually THE point of the discussion and it's why you're resisting it. I am trying to demonstrate to you that morality is an internal, biological function like all others. You prefer to think of it as an external influence on us - your 'still small voice'. I have physical evidence that it is the former, you have a superstitious, mystical belief that it is the latter.
but when you read that quote it is clear that emotions impact our morality in a given situation. Of course, our emotional state determines to some degree how we react to situations.
For example we might morally know that murder is wrong but while angry we might do it anyway. That does not make morality an emotion. Sure, we may know that it's wrong but murder in a calculated and deliberate way too. We also justify murder to ourselves in times of war. There is no external absolute. But we know what is wrong because we have learnt that it is wrong and most of us also know it physically because our emotional state rebels against it - this is our empathetic functioning - we can't help but feel it. I wonder why you continue to deny this? Morality is a combination of social learning and internal emotional states. No god necessary.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Because there is no other absolute standard. You say as much in point#4.
First, why can't there be an absolute morality without god? Second this god could have a morality we didn't like, for example he could be the god of the Old Testament who is a total bastard. The evidence shows that it was the people who were being total bastards to each other in the name of survival of some of them. God was simply a plot device they used to justify their actions.
Third, what is an absolute morality anyway? Can you describe one? If there was one, how could free will exist? Good question. Could we even describe a hypothetical one? That pesky free will, anyway! It even allows us to rationalize the idea of God clear off of the page.
Fourth, we know that in fact our morality is relative, so ? So here we are.
Fifth, morality is actually a biological and social construct, god has nothing to do with it Humans cant really decide what God has anything to do with. We can claim He does not exist and get rid of the problem that way, but we cant include Him and also define His character if we are honest.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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