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Author Topic:   Morality without God is impossible
GDR
Member (Idle past 225 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 106 of 306 (872865)
03-05-2020 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
03-05-2020 8:03 PM


Re: An External Morality
jar writes:

Anyone can love sacrificially without thought of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next, particularly atheists. Anyone can behave sacrificially without thought of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next, particularly atheists. Anyone can do things sacrificially without thought of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next, particularly atheists.

Of course, which is the point I was making.
jar writes:

No God is needed. And with atheists there is no god involved.

But you don't know that. I believe that there is as it is the God meme silently woven into our consciousness that makes it possible.
jar writes:

It is the act, doing good, that is significant not the motivation or source or deity.

I disagree as do the Gospels.

jar writes:

Christianity is a path. It is a chosen path. But it is not the right path or only path or best path or better path.

Truth matters. If God resurrected Jesus then the path that Jesus taught is more than relevant.

jar writes:

Remember what Aslan says about the service that Emeth did in the name of Tash.

Exactly. Emeth served Tash and Aslan tells him that the things done that are good, even in the name of Tash were done for him, and evil done in the name of Aslan were done for Tash. (words to that effect without looking them up.)

jar writes:

It is the acts that are significant and not the motivation.

If you are looking at the physical effect of what happens then I agree. However as we see in Matthew 25 the sheep had no idea that they were doing it for a reward.

jar writes:

Now, on the path called Christianity there are road signs that say, if you already got paid for the act don't expect to get paid again. But that is in the realm of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next and a separate subject.

The acts though stand on their own regardless of motivation. The naked clothed are still clothed. The hungry fed are still fed. The homeless sheltered are still sheltered. the sick healed are still healed. The weak protected are still protected.

You believe and I believe that we will get judged after death. But that is not significant until we die. But good done today, even for the worst reason is still good done today.

However, as Christians we are to infect others with the God meme that calls us to self giving love. If when we do something positive for others but do it in order to receive praise from others then that is not likely to convince anyone of the human call to unselfish love.

jar writes:

The acts though stand on their own regardless of motivation. The naked clothed are still clothed. The hungry fed are still fed. The homeless sheltered are still sheltered. the sick healed are still healed. The weak protected are still protected.

OK, but that isn't what made the sheep sheep.

jar writes:

Remember what Aslan says about the service that Emeth did in the name of Tash.

That point is why I brought it up.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 03-05-2020 8:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 03-05-2020 9:07 PM GDR has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 107 of 306 (872866)
03-05-2020 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
03-05-2020 8:03 PM


Re: An External Morality
Anyone can behave sacrificially without thought of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next

Certainly without conscious thought of personal reward but personal reward is at the heart of every choice to act.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 03-05-2020 8:03 PM jar has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 108 of 306 (872867)
03-05-2020 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by GDR
03-05-2020 8:24 PM


Re: An External Morality
GDR writes:

Truth matters. If God resurrected Jesus then the path that Jesus taught is more than relevant.

But resurrection is pretty common in the Bible and we have wandered down that path many times before. I know you have your beliefs but that is not what I find actually written in the Bible. Nor is resurrection unique to Christianity.

But regardless, it has NOTHING to do with morality or behavior.

GDR writes:

If you are looking at the physical effect of what happens then I agree. However as we see in Matthew 25 the sheep had no idea that they were doing it for a reward.

The sheep did not do it for a reward; what they thought is irrelevant.

GDR writes:

However, as Christians we are to infect others with the God meme that calls us to self giving love. If when we do something positive for others but do it in order to receive praise from others then that is not likely to convince anyone of the human call to unselfish love.

More word salad. If when we do something positive for others but do it in order to receive praise from others then that is not likely to convince anyone of the human call to unselfish love and if you look close, there is no God or God meme found in that or needed in that or that adds any value to what was done.

jar writes:

The acts though stand on their own regardless of motivation. The naked clothed are still clothed. The hungry fed are still fed. The homeless sheltered are still sheltered. the sick healed are still healed. The weak protected are still protected.

GDR writes:

OK, but that isn't what made the sheep sheep.

But that IS what made the sheep sheep. It was feeding and clothing and sheltering and comforting and protecting and ...

jar writes:

Remember what Aslan says about the service that Emeth did in the name of Tash.

GDR writes:

That point is why I brought it up.

The go back a reread it.

I know you believe there is some god meme and that Christianity is somehow more than a chosen path but so far you have presented no reasoning that that it is or should be true.

I actually agree with your belief but I also understand it is simply a belief and neither reasonable or rational or logical or based on any evidence.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by GDR, posted 03-05-2020 8:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by GDR, posted 03-06-2020 11:48 AM jar has replied
 Message 118 by Phat, posted 03-06-2020 1:42 PM jar has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5112
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 109 of 306 (872869)
03-05-2020 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
02-28-2020 8:06 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
Dammit, Jim! I'm an engineer, not a philosopher!

I never had no truck with philosophers. But this I remember hearing.

Maybe it was Plato or some such dude (hard to tell them apart when they're all wearing the same bedsheets) . There's a color, Blue. Somewhere, there must exist some abstract concept, Blue, which is some kind of archetype or whatever which absolutely and completely embodied that entire concept of blueness.

This entire jack-off/circle-jerk exercise about some kind of "absolute morality" is all the same. Complete and utter bullshit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 8:06 PM GDR has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 110 of 306 (872877)
03-06-2020 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by GDR
03-05-2020 3:55 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
GDR writes:

Well if my arguments are species then yours are specious.

Look, this is your statement

“if there is a moral intelligence...
then there can be an absolute morality“

That can only be correct in meaningless sort of way because you can substitute anything for absolute morality in it

“if there is a moral intelligence...
then there can be bananas”

Plus the intelligence need not be moral nor does it need to have morals we agree with. It's not any sort of useful argument.

I believe in a resurrected Jesus ....

We know what you believe, we're looking or valid argument supporting your belief.

They are attributes. Anger is an emotion - morality isn't.

Our sense of morality is a bloody emotion! It's a brain function, we can see it working just like we can identify the speech and sight and other functional areas of the brain we know where the emotions of empathy and compassion are. You’re denying facts, why?

quote:
Moral Emotions
Emotions – that is to say feelings and intuitions – play a major role in most of the ethical decisions people make. Most people do not realize how much their emotions direct their moral choices. But experts think it is impossible to make any important moral judgments without emotions.

Inner-directed negative emotions like guilt, embarrassment, and shame often motivate people to act ethically.

Outer-directed negative emotions, on the other hand, aim to discipline or punish. For example, people often direct anger, disgust, or contempt at those who have acted unethically. This discourages others from behaving the same way.

Positive emotions like gratitude and admiration, which people may feel when they see another acting with compassion or kindness, can prompt people to help others.

Emotions evoked by suffering, such as sympathy and empathy, often lead people to act ethically toward others. Indeed, empathy is the central moral emotion that most commonly motivates prosocial activity such as altruism, cooperation, and generosity.

So, while we may believe that our moral decisions are influenced most by our philosophy or religious values, in truth our emotions play a significant role in our ethical decision-making.


Moral Emotions - Ethics Unwrapped

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by GDR, posted 03-05-2020 3:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 03-06-2020 5:57 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 113 by GDR, posted 03-06-2020 11:54 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 717 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 111 of 306 (872878)
03-06-2020 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Tangle
03-06-2020 5:46 AM


Re: A Universal Morality
When GDR said

“if there is a moral intelligence...
then there can be an absolute morality“

I supposed what he meant was more like

If there is a universal moral intelligence that governs this universe
then there can be an absolute morality.

So, GDR, is that what you meant?
And Tangle, what difference does it make to your thinking?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2020 5:46 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by GDR, posted 03-06-2020 11:59 AM Faith has taken no action
 Message 117 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2020 1:41 PM Faith has taken no action

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 225 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 112 of 306 (872898)
03-06-2020 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
03-05-2020 9:07 PM


Re: An External Morality
jar writes:

ut resurrection is pretty common in the Bible and we have wandered down that path many times before. I know you have your beliefs but that is not what I find actually written in the Bible. Nor is resurrection unique to Christianity.

Resurrection into a new renewed physical existence is not the same thing as resuscitation into body that is still subject to decay. As you love to tell Phat - just read your Bible.

jar writes:

But regardless, it has NOTHING to do with morality or behavior.

Not in itself but it should make you want to pay attention to what Jesus had to say.

jar writes:

The sheep did not do it for a reward

That is the point. They were following the God meme and nudging them to follow the Golden Rule.

jar writes:

More word salad. If when we do something positive for others but do it in order to receive praise from others then that is not likely to convince anyone of the human call to unselfish love and if you look close, there is no God or God meme found in that or needed in that or that adds any value to what was done.

Neither you nor I know whether that is true or not. It is belief. You seem to follow Descartes view of Christianity when he says,"I concluded never to accept anything for true which I did not clearly know to be such".

jar writes:

But that IS what made the sheep sheep. It was feeding and clothing and sheltering and comforting and protecting and ...

... without thought of reward.

jar writes:

I know you believe there is some god meme and that Christianity is somehow more than a chosen path but so far you have presented no reasoning that that it is or should be true.

I actually agree with your belief but I also understand it is simply a belief and neither reasonable or rational or logical or based on any evidence.

We all know that there is no hard evidence. Firstly I believe that the words of Jesus in the Bible accurately reflect, not His exact words but His fundamental message. On the philosophical side, it makes sense of the world I live in and my life. However, yes it is belief, and faith in that belief, that flows from believing in a theistic deity whose essence was embodied by Jesus.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 03-05-2020 9:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 03-06-2020 11:56 AM GDR has taken no action
 Message 116 by jar, posted 03-06-2020 12:19 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 225 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 113 of 306 (872899)
03-06-2020 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Tangle
03-06-2020 5:46 AM


Re: A Universal Morality
Tangle writes:

We know what you believe, we're looking or valid argument supporting your belief.

I have done that in other threads.

Tangle writes:

Our sense of morality is a bloody emotion! It's a brain function, we can see it working just like we can identify the speech and sight and other functional areas of the brain we know where the emotions of empathy and compassion are. You’re denying facts, why?

This is a pointless discussion but when you read that quote it is clear that emotions impact our morality in a given situation. For example we might morally know that murder is wrong but while angry we might do it anyway.

That does not make morality an emotion.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2020 5:46 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2020 1:59 PM GDR has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19613
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 114 of 306 (872900)
03-06-2020 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by GDR
03-06-2020 11:48 AM


Re: An External Morality
GDR writes:

Resurrection into a new renewed physical existence is not the same thing as resuscitation into body that is still subject to decay.


I would think that resuscitating the old chemicals would be more impressive.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member (Idle past 225 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 115 of 306 (872901)
03-06-2020 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
03-06-2020 5:57 AM


Re: A Universal Morality
Faith writes:

If there is a universal moral intelligence that governs this universe
then there can be an absolute morality.

So, GDR, is that what you meant?

I was shown the error of my ways when I talked about a universal morality as we all know that different people have different views on what morality is.

However, I might now say that f there is a universal moral intelligence that governs this universe
then there can be an external morality that has an impact on our lives.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 03-06-2020 5:57 AM Faith has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 116 of 306 (872902)
03-06-2020 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by GDR
03-06-2020 11:48 AM


Re: An External Morality
GDR writes:

Resurrection into a new renewed physical existence is not the same thing as resuscitation into body that is still subject to decay. As you love to tell Phat - just read your Bible.

Nonsense.

GDR writes:

That is the point. They were following the God meme and nudging them to follow the Golden Rule.

Nonsense. There you go just making stuff up.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by GDR, posted 03-06-2020 11:48 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by GDR, posted 03-06-2020 4:57 PM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 117 of 306 (872904)
03-06-2020 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
03-06-2020 5:57 AM


Re: A Universal Morality
Faith writes:

If there is a universal moral intelligence that governs this universe
then there can be an absolute morality…And Tangle, what difference does it make to your thinking?

When I asked what a moral intelligence was, GDR said “God” so it becomes.

“ If there is a god that governs this universe
then there can be an absolute morality.”

This doesn't follow.

First, why can't there be an absolute morality without god?

Second this god could have a morality we didn't like, for example he could be the god of the Old Testament who is a total bastard.

Third, what is an absolute morality anyway? Can you describe one? If there was one, how could free will exist?

Fourth, we know that in fact our morality is relative, so …?

Fifth, morality is actually a biological and social construct, god has nothing to do with it


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 03-06-2020 5:57 AM Faith has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 03-06-2020 1:59 PM Tangle has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15993
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 118 of 306 (872905)
03-06-2020 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
03-05-2020 9:07 PM


Re: An External Morality
jar writes:

The acts though stand on their own regardless of motivation. The naked clothed are still clothed. The hungry fed are still fed. The homeless sheltered are still sheltered. the sick healed are still healed. The weak protected are still protected.

GDR writes:

OK, but that isn't what made the sheep sheep.

jar writes:

But that IS what made the sheep sheep. It was feeding and clothing and sheltering and comforting and protecting and ...

Wait a minute! Are you (jar) telling us that sheep become sheep through their own effort and decisions? I suppose that would mean that goats decide to be goats. Maybe that does make sense. I hope not though. Why should I be responsible for my own human nature? Its Gods job to steer me in the direction I am to walk.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 03-05-2020 9:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 03-06-2020 2:15 PM Phat has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 119 of 306 (872906)
03-06-2020 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by GDR
03-06-2020 11:54 AM


Re: A Universal Morality
GDR writes:

This is a pointless discussion

This is actually THE point of the discussion and it's why you're resisting it.

I am trying to demonstrate to you that morality is an internal, biological function like all others. You prefer to think of it as an external influence on us - your 'still small voice'. I have physical evidence that it is the former, you have a superstitious, mystical belief that it is the latter.

but when you read that quote it is clear that emotions impact our morality in a given situation.

Of course, our emotional state determines to some degree how we react to situations.

For example we might morally know that murder is wrong but while angry we might do it anyway. That does not make morality an emotion.

Sure, we may know that it's wrong but murder in a calculated and deliberate way too. We also justify murder to ourselves in times of war. There is no external absolute.

But we know what is wrong because we have learnt that it is wrong and most of us also know it physically because our emotional state rebels against it - this is our empathetic functioning - we can't help but feel it. I wonder why you continue to deny this? Morality is a combination of social learning and internal emotional states. No god necessary.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by GDR, posted 03-06-2020 11:54 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by GDR, posted 03-06-2020 4:56 PM Tangle has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15993
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 120 of 306 (872907)
03-06-2020 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Tangle
03-06-2020 1:41 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
Tangle writes:

First, why can't there be an absolute morality without god?

Because there is no other absolute standard. You say as much in point#4.

Second this god could have a morality we didn't like, for example he could be the god of the Old Testament who is a total bastard.
The evidence shows that it was the people who were being total bastards to each other in the name of survival of some of them. God was simply a plot device they used to justify their actions.

Third, what is an absolute morality anyway? Can you describe one? If there was one, how could free will exist?
Good question. Could we even describe a hypothetical one? That pesky free will, anyway! It even allows us to rationalize the idea of God clear off of the page.

Fourth, we know that in fact our morality is relative, so …?
So here we are.

Fifth, morality is actually a biological and social construct, god has nothing to do with it
Humans cant really decide what God has anything to do with. We can claim He does not exist and get rid of the problem that way, but we cant include Him and also define His character if we are honest.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2020 1:41 PM Tangle has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Aussie, posted 03-12-2020 1:53 PM Phat has replied

  
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