Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9078 total)
683 online now:
dwise1, nwr, PaulK, ringo (4 members, 679 visitors)
Newest Member: harveyspecter
Post Volume: Total: 895,081 Year: 6,193/6,534 Month: 386/650 Week: 156/278 Day: 24/30 Hour: 1/10


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Morality without God is impossible
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 101 of 306 (872859)
03-05-2020 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by jar
03-05-2020 5:27 PM


An External Morality
jar writes:

I really have to ask why the source is relevant? Even as a believer, why does it matter what the motivation or source for morality is known to be, is unique or even existent?

I think it matters because as a Christian I contend that it isn't what we do that matters but what our motivation is for doing it. From a secular POV the result is all that matters. It doesn't matter whether we do it for public recognition, (back to pride), or if it is done anonymously.

However as a Christian, like Jesus and Luther for that matter it is about having hearts that choose a life based on self-giving love. (Again see Matthew 25.) If there is no God meme, still small voice of God or Holy Spirit, then Tangle, Stile etc are right.

It is faith, but as I believe that this life is only the end of life as we know it, and that somehow our acts of self-giving love do have eternal consequences in ways that are well beyond my pay grade.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 03-05-2020 5:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 03-05-2020 7:03 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 103 of 306 (872862)
03-05-2020 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
03-05-2020 7:03 PM


Re: An External Morality
jar writes:

But if the motivation for the act is because of Buddha or Ganesha or Satan or Shiva or that it's just the right thing to do how is that different than because the God you happen to believe in says to do it?

You've missed the point. It is about loving sacrificially without thought of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next. However, it isn't about doing it because of a specific deity. Yes, I believe that is the God of Christianity that enables us to love that way but that isn't the point. Remember what Aslan says about the service that Emeth did in the name of Tash.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 03-05-2020 7:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 03-05-2020 8:03 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 106 of 306 (872865)
03-05-2020 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
03-05-2020 8:03 PM


Re: An External Morality
jar writes:

Anyone can love sacrificially without thought of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next, particularly atheists. Anyone can behave sacrificially without thought of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next, particularly atheists. Anyone can do things sacrificially without thought of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next, particularly atheists.

Of course, which is the point I was making.
jar writes:

No God is needed. And with atheists there is no god involved.

But you don't know that. I believe that there is as it is the God meme silently woven into our consciousness that makes it possible.
jar writes:

It is the act, doing good, that is significant not the motivation or source or deity.

I disagree as do the Gospels.

jar writes:

Christianity is a path. It is a chosen path. But it is not the right path or only path or best path or better path.

Truth matters. If God resurrected Jesus then the path that Jesus taught is more than relevant.

jar writes:

Remember what Aslan says about the service that Emeth did in the name of Tash.

Exactly. Emeth served Tash and Aslan tells him that the things done that are good, even in the name of Tash were done for him, and evil done in the name of Aslan were done for Tash. (words to that effect without looking them up.)

jar writes:

It is the acts that are significant and not the motivation.

If you are looking at the physical effect of what happens then I agree. However as we see in Matthew 25 the sheep had no idea that they were doing it for a reward.

jar writes:

Now, on the path called Christianity there are road signs that say, if you already got paid for the act don't expect to get paid again. But that is in the realm of personal reward of any sort in this world or the next and a separate subject.

The acts though stand on their own regardless of motivation. The naked clothed are still clothed. The hungry fed are still fed. The homeless sheltered are still sheltered. the sick healed are still healed. The weak protected are still protected.

You believe and I believe that we will get judged after death. But that is not significant until we die. But good done today, even for the worst reason is still good done today.

However, as Christians we are to infect others with the God meme that calls us to self giving love. If when we do something positive for others but do it in order to receive praise from others then that is not likely to convince anyone of the human call to unselfish love.

jar writes:

The acts though stand on their own regardless of motivation. The naked clothed are still clothed. The hungry fed are still fed. The homeless sheltered are still sheltered. the sick healed are still healed. The weak protected are still protected.

OK, but that isn't what made the sheep sheep.

jar writes:

Remember what Aslan says about the service that Emeth did in the name of Tash.

That point is why I brought it up.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 03-05-2020 8:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 03-05-2020 9:07 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 112 of 306 (872898)
03-06-2020 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
03-05-2020 9:07 PM


Re: An External Morality
jar writes:

ut resurrection is pretty common in the Bible and we have wandered down that path many times before. I know you have your beliefs but that is not what I find actually written in the Bible. Nor is resurrection unique to Christianity.

Resurrection into a new renewed physical existence is not the same thing as resuscitation into body that is still subject to decay. As you love to tell Phat - just read your Bible.

jar writes:

But regardless, it has NOTHING to do with morality or behavior.

Not in itself but it should make you want to pay attention to what Jesus had to say.

jar writes:

The sheep did not do it for a reward

That is the point. They were following the God meme and nudging them to follow the Golden Rule.

jar writes:

More word salad. If when we do something positive for others but do it in order to receive praise from others then that is not likely to convince anyone of the human call to unselfish love and if you look close, there is no God or God meme found in that or needed in that or that adds any value to what was done.

Neither you nor I know whether that is true or not. It is belief. You seem to follow Descartes view of Christianity when he says,"I concluded never to accept anything for true which I did not clearly know to be such".

jar writes:

But that IS what made the sheep sheep. It was feeding and clothing and sheltering and comforting and protecting and ...

... without thought of reward.

jar writes:

I know you believe there is some god meme and that Christianity is somehow more than a chosen path but so far you have presented no reasoning that that it is or should be true.

I actually agree with your belief but I also understand it is simply a belief and neither reasonable or rational or logical or based on any evidence.

We all know that there is no hard evidence. Firstly I believe that the words of Jesus in the Bible accurately reflect, not His exact words but His fundamental message. On the philosophical side, it makes sense of the world I live in and my life. However, yes it is belief, and faith in that belief, that flows from believing in a theistic deity whose essence was embodied by Jesus.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 03-05-2020 9:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 03-06-2020 11:56 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 116 by jar, posted 03-06-2020 12:19 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 113 of 306 (872899)
03-06-2020 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Tangle
03-06-2020 5:46 AM


Re: A Universal Morality
Tangle writes:

We know what you believe, we're looking or valid argument supporting your belief.

I have done that in other threads.

Tangle writes:

Our sense of morality is a bloody emotion! It's a brain function, we can see it working just like we can identify the speech and sight and other functional areas of the brain we know where the emotions of empathy and compassion are. You’re denying facts, why?

This is a pointless discussion but when you read that quote it is clear that emotions impact our morality in a given situation. For example we might morally know that murder is wrong but while angry we might do it anyway.

That does not make morality an emotion.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2020 5:46 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2020 1:59 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 115 of 306 (872901)
03-06-2020 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
03-06-2020 5:57 AM


Re: A Universal Morality
Faith writes:

If there is a universal moral intelligence that governs this universe
then there can be an absolute morality.

So, GDR, is that what you meant?

I was shown the error of my ways when I talked about a universal morality as we all know that different people have different views on what morality is.

However, I might now say that f there is a universal moral intelligence that governs this universe
then there can be an external morality that has an impact on our lives.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 03-06-2020 5:57 AM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 125 of 306 (872916)
03-06-2020 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Tangle
03-06-2020 1:59 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
Tangle writes:

This is actually THE point of the discussion and it's why you're resisting it.

I am trying to demonstrate to you that morality is an internal, biological function like all others. You prefer to think of it as an external influence on us - your 'still small voice'. I have physical evidence that it is the former, you have a superstitious, mystical belief that it is the latter.


I am saying that we all have cultural memes but I do add that there is also a God meme amongst all the cultural ones. We are subject to a multitude of influences or memes. The God meme is a matter of belief as to whether it exists or not.

Tangle writes:

But we know what is wrong because we have learnt that it is wrong and most of us also know it physically because our emotional state rebels against it - this is our empathetic functioning - we can't help but feel it. I wonder why you continue to deny this? Morality is a combination of social learning and internal emotional states. No god necessary.

You may well be right. However, we don't know whether a god is necessary or not. Things just are the way they are and we have know way of knowing whether a God meme exists or not. We have simply come to other conclusions.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2020 1:59 PM Tangle has not replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 126 of 306 (872917)
03-06-2020 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by jar
03-06-2020 12:19 PM


Re: An External Morality
jar writes:

Nonsense.

Read your Bible for what it actually says. I agree that you don't have to believe it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 03-06-2020 12:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 03-06-2020 5:22 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 127 of 306 (872918)
03-06-2020 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Taq
03-05-2020 4:54 PM


Re: Two Good References
Taq writes:

Last I checked, Jesus didn't write the gospels.

...but He is quoted a lot.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Taq, posted 03-05-2020 4:54 PM Taq has not replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 128 of 306 (872919)
03-06-2020 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Stile
03-06-2020 3:45 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
Stile writes:

Let me use an example of something simpler to explain:

The problem with your explanation though is that your example is something tangible and physical, whereas what Lewis is talking about is intangible and non-physical.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Stile, posted 03-06-2020 3:45 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2020 2:10 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 146 by Stile, posted 03-09-2020 8:46 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 130 of 306 (872923)
03-06-2020 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
03-06-2020 5:22 PM


Re: An External Morality
jar writes:

Nowhere does it say one example of resurrection is different than the other examples.

The resurrected Jesus appears in locked rooms, is often not recognized at first etc. He appears to have the ability to exist in either our Earthly dimension or God's heavenly dimension.

Cretainly you are free to reject that but it is what the Bible actually says.

1 Cor 15 writes:

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 03-06-2020 5:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 03-06-2020 7:10 PM GDR has replied
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 03-06-2020 7:49 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 132 of 306 (872925)
03-06-2020 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by jar
03-06-2020 7:10 PM


Re: An External Morality
jar writes:

But that is also a great example of how the tale grew as all folk tales grow. Just as with the Great Commission or Travels with Paulie the story is enhanced and made more unreal with each repetition.

I get it. You don't believe the Bible, so why do you keep telling Phat to just read what the Bible says.

jar writes:

But it still has absolutely NOTHING to do with morality or whatever a God meme might be or external sources of morality or universal morality.

It wasn't intended to.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 03-06-2020 7:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 03-06-2020 7:59 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 151 of 306 (873059)
03-09-2020 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Stile
03-09-2020 8:46 AM


Re: A Universal Morality
Stile writes:

Why would you need something "independent of human thought" to compare things?
Why can't you compare two things as long as you have something "independent of those two things?"
A ruler isn't independent of "length" - it's simply independent of two other-things-with-length that you want to compare.

I disagree. Lewis’ point was not about comparing good and evil to each other. In either case he is saying that if you just compare them to each other then how can you label them good and evil. He is saying that in order to call something good or evil that has to something to compare either one to.

Take you example of a ruler. Sure you can compare 2 different lengths. However, if you just say something is long then you have to ask in comparison to what. If you just say something is morally good or evil then it must be in comparison to something agreed upon standard.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Stile, posted 03-09-2020 8:46 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Stile, posted 03-09-2020 11:50 AM GDR has replied
 Message 158 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2020 12:04 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 160 of 306 (873091)
03-09-2020 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Stile
03-09-2020 11:50 AM


Re: A Universal Morality
Stile writes:

Exactly.

"How long?" Implies - long against what? - but this "what" can be something imagined by humans, like a ruler.

"How moral?" Implies - moral against what? - but this "what" can be something imagined by humans, like a moral guide such as "good is helping people, bad is hurting people - according to the people you're interacting with."

CS Lewis' restriction that this "moral against what?" needs to be "independent of human thought" is silly.
Why would it need to be independent of human thought?

Rulers are imagined-by-humans and provide a great "long against what" - yet they themselves are not independent of human thought, or length, or physical reality.

Why can't an imagined-by-humans idea of morality provide a great "moral against what?"
-why would it need to be independent of human thought?
-why would it need to be independent of morality itself?

It doesn't make any sense to impose such restrictions if the goal is to have "something you can compare 2 different morals against."

But IMHO you are comparing physical things that we can evaluate objectively. We can say that a foot is longer than an inch but shorter than a mile.

We say that generosity is better than greed and compare them to each other but if we can simply say that generosity is good without having to compare it to greed.

So we say something is good it stands on its own, whereas if we say something is long it has to be understood what it is long in comparison to. So, when we say something is good, we know what it means without having to compare it to some other good or evil.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Stile, posted 03-09-2020 11:50 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Stile, posted 03-10-2020 12:29 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 267 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 161 of 306 (873092)
03-09-2020 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by PaulK
03-09-2020 12:04 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
PaulK writes:

Lewis’ claim is that you must have an objective standard which is untrue. If Lewis was making the claim you say, then there would be nothing to it. We have our ideas of good and evil and that’s all that is needed.

That's fine if we were all going to choose good all the time. Unfortunately we don't. Also, we don't know objectively how we come to the moral decisions that we do.

We are subject to a myriad of cultural memes but it is my subjective belief that in that mixture of influences is a God meme that also influences us towards a morality that exists whether people exist or not.

PaulK writes:

the standard must be intersubjective. That’s fine but it doesn’t get you to objectivity.

We all have our subjective beliefs on this. There is no proof of whether we are influenced by an external morality or not.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2020 12:04 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by PaulK, posted 03-10-2020 1:58 AM GDR has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022