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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 15465
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 842 of 853 (872893)
03-06-2020 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 841 by ringo
03-04-2020 2:20 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:

I listened to Dan Barker and Matt Dillahunty.


ringo writes:

I don't know who they are.


quote:
Daniel Edwin Barker (born June 25, 1949) is an American atheist activist and musician who served as an evangelical Christian preacher and composer for 19 years but left Christianity in 1984. He and his wife Annie Laurie Gaylor are the current co-presidents of the Freedom From Religion Foundation.[2] He has written numerous articles for Freethought Today, an American freethought newspaper. He is the author of several books including Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist.[3](...)Matthew Wade Dillahunty (born March 31, 1969) is an American atheist activist who is the current president of the Atheist Community of Austin, a position he had previously held from 2006 to 2013.[3][4][5][6] He has hosted the Austin-based webcast and cable-access television show The Atheist Experience since 2005,[7][8][9] and formerly hosted the live Internet radio show Non-Prophets Radio.[10][11] He is also the founder of and a contributor to the counter-apologetics encyclopedia Iron Chariots and its subsidiary sites. He is regularly engaged in formal debates and travels the United States speaking to local secular organizations and university groups as part of the Secular Student Alliance's Speakers Bureau. (...)Raised Southern Baptist, Dillahunty considered becoming a minister.[2] His in-depth examination of his Christian beliefs, instead of bolstering his faith as he had intended, led him to no longer believe in the basic tenets of Christianity and, eventually, all religions. (...)One of Dillahunty's recurring themes has been the superiority of secular morality over religious morality. His key contentions on the issue are that secular moral systems are inclusive, dynamic, encourage change, and serve the interests of the participants, whereas religious moral systems serve only the interests of an external authority.

ringo writes:

You don't have to actually think about anything because you already have The Answer

If by that you mean that I don't throw away my old answers whenever I come across new ones, you are correct. I do consider the new ones on their own merit and in light of my observations and understanding of humans and human nature...gleaned from my college studies on Psychology.

Do you expect me to throw away everything I have believed as you did? I think you are the loopy one in that regard. You deify evidence as if its the default standard for everything, and have somehow gathered enough of it to reject God. I, on the other hand, would need better reasons than a few scholarly lectures from educated people to throw my beliefs away.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 841 by ringo, posted 03-04-2020 2:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 843 by ringo, posted 03-06-2020 11:09 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15465
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 844 of 853 (872972)
03-07-2020 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 843 by ringo
03-06-2020 11:09 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
You would need "more" than facts to stop clinging to a lack of facts? Whatever happened to your claim that you consider new ideas on their merit?
I believe that humans are in a war of ideologies. I believe that Satan is not simply a plot device representing our own selfish thinking but is an external reality. I have seen enough. Satan was allowed to exist in order to temper us and make those who have an ear stronger. Resisting evil is not an automatic response from every human...many are weak and would as soon roll over and sleep it off or find a way to justify it and form a consensus with it. As for facts, there are some instances in life where they simply are unavailable. The absence of evidence is in and of itself no reason to conclude evidence of absence.

...you don't give the new answers proper consideration because you assume a priori that they're wrong (because you want them to be wrong).
Fair enough. You are no different, however. You would be open to having a discussion with God if somehow he could be brought to your house, at your level, and be plopped down on your couch. You likely would grill Him, citing His propensity to "fry your friends and kill innocents, among other things. He is in no way as user-friendly as you hope, so you simply ignore him. Granted I ignore the homeless guy on the way to work always in the same spot begging for change...though I have given it to him on two occasions recently. Why has he any right to everybody's spare change any more than you or i do?

You might argue why God has any right to everybody's submission. The only reason you even have such a right is that He allowed it.

You're constantly saying that you refuse to give up your beliefs.
Lets put it this way. Say that at one time perhaps ten years ago, you and three friends, enjoying a sober day in the mountains, encountered a UFO. You clearly remember every feeling connected with the experience and even what the round-headed alien said to you. You even felt the touch of their scaley skin brushing against you. Your friends experienced the same event. So along comes evidence which refutes that possibility. Do you simply throw away your memory and your impressions?
Yes. If you have really thought about it, I don't see how you could do anything else.
You follow evidence and facts and dismiss the experience as something in your head that could trick you.

Keep in mind that I have no reason to accept or reject unicorns. The encyclopedia says they do not exist, so I leave it at that.

I would argue that I have a few reasons to accept God while you feel otherwise.
You seem to do fine without Him. In fact, you would prefer that the God peddled by organized religion not be real.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by ringo, posted 03-06-2020 11:09 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 845 by jar, posted 03-07-2020 4:25 PM Phat has responded
 Message 848 by ringo, posted 03-08-2020 2:33 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15465
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 846 of 853 (872976)
03-07-2020 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 845 by jar
03-07-2020 4:25 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
It really is about what you do.
I know that. What I was telling ringo is that this same homeless guy parks himself at the same corner every day and collects from people stopped at the light. I give when I feel compelled to give and not out of obligation. Just because he has his hand out is no reason to give every single time I see him. heck, he probably makes more than I do!

And what of the day when I cannot work? If I save nothing I will have nothing. I don't see Bernie and the liberals getting elected anytime soon and I am bright enough to know that they cant conjure social money out of thin air. The nation is already far in debt.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 845 by jar, posted 03-07-2020 4:25 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 847 by jar, posted 03-07-2020 5:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 849 by ringo, posted 03-08-2020 2:43 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15465
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 850 of 853 (873017)
03-08-2020 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 849 by ringo
03-08-2020 2:43 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Actually I agree with your Mother. I think I met an angel once...no evidence except that he seemed to glow and he had wisdom that one wouldn't expect out of a homeless man. I don't mind giving and helping people. It makes me feel better too. To be honest, however, if I found out someday that God was not real and that all I had been doing was helping my fellow humans, I would feel a bit disappointed.

Its true I would have been doing good. But I really really hope that God exists, is Who we expect Him to be characterwise, and is just waiting to bestow good things on all His children.

I will admit there are valid questions from his critics.

  • Why does He not help us now?(Perhaps he does behind the scenes)
  • Why do so many suffer? Its the only thing that puts a damper on my blessings. Its a bit like getting served at a big feast first and having to not eat until everyone gets served..

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 849 by ringo, posted 03-08-2020 2:43 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 851 by ringo, posted 03-08-2020 5:01 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 852 of 853 (873055)
    03-09-2020 10:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 851 by ringo
    03-08-2020 5:01 PM


    Re: The point of Christianity
    I remember my encounter. I had recently gotten "saved" and was full of love for everybody. The church that I attended had turned a homeless guy away, and I went outside to talk to him. (they were mad that he tracked mud into the sanctuary when he wanted food. he was also inebriated.) So I went out to talk to him. He lived in the railyard next door to the church.(homeless) and I gave him some money and told him why they turned him away.(It was Brent, one of the deacons, who basically had the philosophy that a church would/should feed the needy but not "devils".(drunk people, I assume) After I showed the man respect, he suddenly seemed to glow and began telling me that I would be blessed for helping him.
    hen you completely missed the point of what my mother said. She meant that you wouldn't recognize them.
    The thing is, I never thought anything about him being an angel until after I had talked with him, perhaps several hours later when the possibility just hit me. Mind you, I wouldn't expect anything but its always nice to know that God appreciates our selfless love towards others.

    Again, if I someday found out that God was not real, I would probably go through a personal crisis. It's not that I don't find value in helping people. Its that I count on being taken care of in the grand scheme of things. I suppose that the homeless feel that way too.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 851 by ringo, posted 03-08-2020 5:01 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 853 by ringo, posted 03-09-2020 11:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
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