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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
creation
Member (Idle past 396 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1261 of 1274 (844562)
12-02-2018 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1258 by RAZD
12-01-2018 3:20 PM


Re: ... Still so wrong -- the correlations win again
Too bad for you that you only mutually relate all things to ONE belief. All roads lead only to that one road...blind alley!

This message is a reply to:
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creation
Member (Idle past 396 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1262 of 1274 (844563)
12-02-2018 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1259 by AZPaul3
12-01-2018 3:21 PM


Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
You look at the heavens FROM the fishbowl and you imagine all the universe operates on fishbowl time and space and rules. You concoct models of what the unknown is like based solely on current fishbowl knowledge!

Your attempted insults to God and the holy people of old have no value except to expose where you really come from/


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1259 by AZPaul3, posted 12-01-2018 3:21 PM AZPaul3 has responded

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creation
Member (Idle past 396 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1263 of 1274 (844564)
12-02-2018 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1260 by AZPaul3
12-01-2018 8:19 PM


Re: Evo demolition expert
How do you know iridium was NOT with water??

What in tarnation do you think some volcanologist has to do with fountains of the deep mentioned in the bible?? Utterly ridiculous.

You claim the events were millions of years ago, but that is solely based on same nature in the past belief! Got anything else?
You claim you know that the Yucatan impact was from above and offer no intelligent conversation, or support or detail. Instead we see some drooling insults to record of God, and allusions to some experts that you can't cite, or explain what they say!

You conflate a world of religious nonsense with a world of evidence. Lurkers, behold the fallen state of the defenders of the evo faith here! Pathetic. The once might have fallen.


This message is a reply to:
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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1952
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


(1)
Message 1264 of 1274 (844565)
12-02-2018 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1262 by creation
12-02-2018 1:22 AM


Game Over
That's it---you are gone. Game over. Evos won....

  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
  • Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation.
  • The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1262 by creation, posted 12-02-2018 1:22 AM creation has not yet responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 4860
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 5.0


    (1)
    Message 1265 of 1274 (844570)
    12-02-2018 8:21 AM
    Reply to: Message 1262 by creation
    12-02-2018 1:22 AM


    Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
    You look at the heavens FROM the fishbowl and you imagine all the universe operates on fishbowl time and space and rules.

    As the available evidence shows, the same physics, the same "nature", operates both our fishbowl and the rest of the universe. This fishbowl is just one small part of a grander universe all operating, apparently, from the same universal rules. And you can't show us anything different.

    You concoct models of what the unknown is like based solely on current fishbowl knowledge

    We're pretty smart fish.

    Your attempted insults to God and the holy people of old have no value except to expose where you really come from/

    We cannot insult what isn't there.

    It is not the ancient goat herders of 3000 years ago who made up stories in an attempt to fathom the workings of this world with their limited-to-non-existent knowledge that I insult, it is those in the present whose own intellect, in the face of 3000 years of advancing human knowledge, is so limited they believe the ancient goat herder stories as if these stories were the pinnacle of human knowledge. Like the knowledge acquired in the last 3000 years by this species is nothing but some grand conspiracy against the lesser knowledge of the bronze age instead of an advancing correction to that knowledge.

    I insult you, not them.

    [abe] You really need to stop pissing off Phat.

    Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

    Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


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    RAZD
    Member
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    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 1266 of 1274 (844572)
    12-02-2018 8:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 1261 by creation
    12-02-2018 1:18 AM


    Your problem: no correlations should exist
    Too bad for you that you only mutually relate all things to ONE belief. All roads lead only to that one road...blind alley!

    There is no evidence of a change in nature, no start point, no measure of change, nothing. This is no explanation for the correlations.

    The Correlations win again.

    Your biggest problem is that you have castrated what you accept as reasonable argument to such a degree that you can't say anything about it. No correlations should exist -- evidence that you are wrong -- as everything should be jumbled, and you cannot trust any narrative that comes from outside your bubble, not one ... including Christian creation.

    One trick pony.

    Enjoy

    Edited by RAZD, : .

    Edited by RAZD, : .


    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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    edge
    Member (Idle past 160 days)
    Posts: 4696
    From: Colorado, USA
    Joined: 01-09-2002


    Message 1267 of 1274 (844584)
    12-02-2018 1:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 1263 by creation
    12-02-2018 1:30 AM


    Re: Evo demolition expert
    How do you know iridium was NOT with water??

    This is gibberish. What do you mean "with water"?

    What in tarnation do you think some volcanologist has to do with fountains of the deep mentioned in the bible?? Utterly ridiculous.

    If something were erupted from the core of the earth, it would seem that volcanologists would be involved.

    You claim the events were millions of years ago, but that is solely based on same nature in the past belief! Got anything else?

    Actually, there were many such events, including the much younger Eltanin impact which also yielded a large harvest of iridium.

    You claim you know that the Yucatan impact was from above and offer no intelligent conversation, or support or detail.

    I went over that in an earlier post. Please have the courtesy of reading and attempting to understand.

    Instead we see some drooling insults to record of God, and allusions to some experts that you can't cite, or explain what they say!

    This has nothing to do with any god. Your own posts prove that.

    You conflate a world of religious nonsense with a world of evidence.

    Heh, heh ...

    Lurkers, behold the fallen state of the defenders of the evo faith here! Pathetic. The once might have fallen.

    Hadn't observed this, but we note your opinion.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1263 by creation, posted 12-02-2018 1:30 AM creation has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18019
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 1268 of 1274 (844585)
    12-02-2018 1:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 1256 by creation
    12-01-2018 2:08 PM


    Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
    creation writes:

    I have grasped the evidences that you impose the one same belief upon! None of them nor all of them are any better than the one belief they sit on.


    You have completely missed the point of this thread.

    Even if you could successfully challenge one or two of the dating methods - and you can't - that accomplishes nothing. The thread is about the correlation of ALL of the dating methods: ALL of the dating methods give the same answers.

    Even if you could discredit each and every one of the dating methods - and you have failed miserably to even scratch the surface on ANY of them - but even if you could discredit ALL of them individually, you'd still have to produce a cogent reason for them all being wrong in exactly the same way.

    It's like five hundred people trying to go from New York to Los Angeles by five hundred different routes and every single one of them winding up in Pensacola by mistake. You creationists are fond of complaining about the odds against abiogenesis and evolution; try calculating the odds on that one.


    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Tanypteryx
    Member (Idle past 11 days)
    Posts: 2332
    From: Oregon, USA
    Joined: 08-27-2006


    Message 1269 of 1274 (844586)
    12-02-2018 1:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 1268 by ringo
    12-02-2018 1:14 PM


    Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
    try calculating the odds on that one.

    I get 1 followed by 77 zeros.


    What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

    One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

    If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

    The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


    This message is a reply to:
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    RAZD
    Member
    Posts: 20628
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 1270 of 1274 (857306)
    07-07-2019 2:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 853 by Faith
    10-11-2018 2:28 PM


    Re: And now some correlations
    I figure I would have to personally examine the tree rings very closely to arrive at a meaningful theory.

    That would mean going to where the evidence is. Failing that your best option is:

    1. Learn the basics about dendrochronology, and
    2. Look at pictures that are available.

    You can start here: The Age of the Earth v3p1, message 7: Dendrochronology Basics

    and look at pictures like this one:

    Prometheus section with over 4800 annual rings.

    Also see Message 1010 and Message 1070 for more pictures and information.

    Enjoy

    Edited by RAZD, : .


    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
    ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
    to share.


    • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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    JonF
    Member
    Posts: 5960
    Joined: 06-23-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    (1)
    Message 1271 of 1274 (857889)
    07-12-2019 5:21 PM


    Geomagnetic near-reversal captured in tree rings
    ANCIENT TREE WITH RECORD OF EARTH'S MAGNETIC FIELD REVERSAL IN ITS RINGS DISCOVERED

    quote:
    An ancient tree that contains a record of a reversal of Earth's magnetic field has been discovered in New Zealand. The tree—an Agathis australis, better known as its Māori name kauri—was found in Ngawha, on New Zealand's North Island, during excavation work for the expansion of a geothermal power plant, stuff.nz reports.

    The tree, which had been buried in 26 feet of soil, measures eight feet in diameter and 65 feet in length. Carbon dating revealed it lived for 1,500 years, between 41,000 and 42,500 years ago.

    "There's nothing like this anywhere in the world," Alan Hogg, from New Zealand's University of Waikato, told the website. "This Ngāwhā kauri is unique."

    The lifespan of the kauri tree covers a point in Earth's history when the magnetic field almost reversed. At this time, the magnetic north and south went on an excursion but did not quite complete a full reversal.



    I haven't been able to find a paper.

    https://research.unsw.edu.au/...or-chris-turney/publications
    https://www.waikato.ac.nz/php/research.php?author=19522&m...

    Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


    Replies to this message:
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    RAZD
    Member
    Posts: 20628
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 1272 of 1274 (857891)
    07-12-2019 5:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 1271 by JonF
    07-12-2019 5:21 PM


    Re: Geomagnetic near-reversal captured in tree rings
    Cool stuff.

    Now if we can tie the tree rings to the climate patterns in the varve and ice layers ... then maybe we could introduce lines of magnetic change in the sea bed to the calculations of age.

    Enjoy


    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
    ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
    to share.


    • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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    JonF
    Member
    Posts: 5960
    Joined: 06-23-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 1273 of 1274 (873175)
    03-10-2020 7:49 PM


    This may be interesting. Just another correlation between independent methods.

    Error - Cookies Turned Off

    [quote]This study presents subdaily resolved chemical records through fossil mollusk shell calcite. Trace element profiles resolve periodic variability across ~40‐μm‐thin daily growth laminae in a Campanian Torreites sanchezi rudist bivalve. These high‐resolution records are combined with seasonally resolved stable isotope and trace element records that allow shell‐chemical variability to be discussed on both seasonal and daily scale. A combination of layer counting, spectral analysis of chemical cyclicity and chemical layer counting shows that the rudist precipitated 372 daily laminae per year, demonstrating that length of day has increased since the Late Cretaceous, as predicted by astronomical models. This new approach to determine the length of a solar day in geologic history through multiproxy chemical records at subdaily resolution yields considerably more control on the uncertainty of this estimate. Daily chemical variability exceeds seasonal variability in our records, and cannot be explained by diurnal temperature changes. Instead, we postulate that rudist shell chemistry is driven on a daily scale by changes in light intensity. These results together with those of stable isotope analyses provide strong evidence that Torreites rudists had photosymbionts. Bivalve shell calcite generally preserves well. Therefore, this study paves the way for daily‐scale reconstructions of paleoenvironment and sunlight intensity on geologic time scales from bivalve shells, potentially allowing researchers to bridge the gap between climate and weather reconstructions. Such reconstructions improve shell chronologies, document environmental change in warm ecosystems, and widen our understanding of the magnitude of short‐term changes during greenhouse climates.[ /quote]
    {emphasis added}


    Replies to this message:
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    RAZD
    Member
    Posts: 20628
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 1274 of 1274 (873203)
    03-11-2020 11:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 1273 by JonF
    03-10-2020 7:49 PM


    [ /quote] has an extra space in it.

    Error - Cookies Turned Off -- needs to be addressed by Percy

    Subdaily‐Scale Chemical Variability in a Torreites Sanchezi Rudist Shell: Implications for Rudist Paleobiology and the Cretaceous Day‐Night Cycle

    quote:
    Both proxy‐based paleoclimate reconstructions and climate models characterize the Campanian (83.6 ± 0.5 to 72.1 ± 0.2 Ma; Gradstein et al., 2012) as a warm stage with large fluctuations in climate and sea level (Friedrich et al., 2012; Huber et al., 2002; Pearson et al., 2001). Campanian global mean annual surface temperatures are estimated to have been 2–4 °C warmer than today, with a reduced equator‐to‐pole temperature gradient (Amiot et al., 2004; Friedrich et al., 2012; Huber et al., 2002). Warm intervals such as the Campanian provide important insights into processes of climate and environmental change that operate during periods with elevated atmospheric CO2 concentrations (>500 ppm in the Campanian; Gao et al., 2015), such as those predicted for the end of the twenty‐first century (Meehl et al., 2007; Price et al., 2013). Most deep‐time (pre‐Quaternary) climate reconstructions have so far focused on long‐term changes in climate and environment on orbital to tectonic time scales (103–108 years; Zachos et al., 2001; Veizer & Prokoph, 2015). However, crucial information can be obtained from the still poorly understood changes on a shorter, human (subannual to decadal) time scale. Combined with long‐term climate records, such high‐resolution, “snapshot” reconstructions improve current understanding of the dynamics of greenhouse climates and the effect of rapid climate change on the environment. Furthermore, the combination of low‐ and high‐resolution data allows us to study the full spectrum of continuum climate variability and bridge the gap between long‐ and short‐term changes in climate (Huybers & Curry, 2006).

    Not only is the study of subdaily resolved records important for understanding environmental change at even higher (daily) temporal resolution, it also enables more accurate estimations of the length of astronomical cycles (e.g., diurnal, tidal, and annual; Bills & Ray, 1999; Williams, 2000). When applied on fossil bioarchives, these observations shed light on the evolution of the Earth‐Moon system on geological time scales (Williams, 2000). This information helps to improve constraints on geologic dating through cyclostratigraphy and yields boundary conditions for astronomical models (Berger et al., 1989; Laskar et al., 2004; Meyers & Malinverno, 2018).

    Accurately dated and well‐preserved hard tissues (e.g., fossil mollusk shells, corals, and bioapatites) are valuable archives of subannual to multidecadal paleoenvironmental change (Butler et al., 2013; Fricke et al., 1998; Gothmann et al., 2015; Steuber, 1996). Bivalve shells have proven to be especially useful for reconstructing paleoseasonality and decadal climate variability (e.g., Schöne et al., 2005; Steuber et al., 2005; Watanabe et al., 2004). Indeed, shells of many bivalve species record daily growth increments, especially during the first years of growth (e.g., Pannella, 1972; Schöne, Fiebig, et al., 2005; Warter & Müller, 2017). Hippuritid rudist bivalves (Hippuritidae, Gray 1848) are of special interest for climate reconstructions in the Late Cretaceous, because of their abundance in the fossil record and because their comparatively thick, diagenetically resistant low‐Mg calcite (LMC) outer shell layers serve as reliable archives for shallow marine chemistry (Al‐Aasm & Veizer, 1986a, 1986b; Steuber, 1996). Since the rudists became extinct at the Cretaceous‐Paleogene boundary (Steuber et al., 2002), no close living relatives are available for comparison. ...

    Stable oxygen isotope ratios (δ18O) are often used in bivalve studies because they record calcification temperature and the oxygen isotope composition of the seawater, the latter of which is strongly linked to salinity (Jones, 1983; Schöne, Fiebig, et al., 2005). ...

    Based on subdaily resolved Mg/Ca, Mg/Li, Sr/Ca, and Sr/Li records and the microscopic observations of laminae in the shell, and the assumption that these laminae represent (solar) days (see section 4), the number of days in the late Campanian year with associated uncertainty was estimated using three independent methods.

    The first estimate of the number of days per year (cycle length) was made by dividing the length of the annual cycle, in micrometer shell length along the record extracted from the long trace element and stable isotope records (Figure 1a) using the identification of significant peaks from the MTM spectrum (Figure 1b), by the length of the daily cycle extracted similarly from the power spectra of high‐resolution records. ...

    The second estimate the number of days per year (visual layer counting) was made from counting the number of daily laminae within one year of growth from the composite of microscopic images of the shell (reflected light microscopy in Figure 2 and transmitted thin section microscopy in Figure S13). ...

    The third estimate the number of days per year (chemical layer counting) is unique to this study and uses fixed points (maxima, minima, and crossover points) of cycles extracted from the high‐resolution trace element records by band‐pass filtering to obtain a record of day‐by‐day cycle length along the complete nine‐year‐long record measured in T. sanchezi (Figure 1a and section 3). Not only does this estimate allow the number of days per year to be estimated with more confidence (N = 36 independent estimates: nine growth years times four trace element records), it also allows one to calculate the part of the record that preserves daily lamination (%preservation) for each record and each growth year separately. ...

    The length of a Campanian day is calculated by dividing the length of a year in seconds (which remained constant over geological time; Williams, 2000) by the number of days per year. The Earth‐Moon distance can be calculated via the assumption that the total inertia and energy of the Earth‐Moon system remains constant over time (Lowrie, 2007). ...

    Results

    ... At the same time, stable isotope analyses show that these well‐preserved parts of the shell are characterized by δ18O values fluctuating periodically between −6‰ and −4.5‰ VPDB, which, although relatively low for bivalve calcite, is comparable with records of pristine calcite from this and other rudist species from the Late Cretaceous (Steuber, 1996, 1999; Steuber et al., 2005). Similarly, periodic fluctuations of δ13C values between 0.5‰ and 2‰ VPDB are consistent with carbon isotope ratios in other well‐preserved fossil bivalve shells (e.g., Batenburg et al., 2011; Steuber, 1996, 1999).

    The δ13C and δ18O records clearly covary, on the seasonal scale as well as on the scale of the aforementioned millimeter‐scale fluctuations (see Figure 1a). A cross plot in Figure 6a shows that this correlation is moderate in strength (R2 = 0.47) and highly statistically significant (p ≪ 0.05). ...

    Correcting for incomplete preservation yields estimates of 376 ± 3.6 and 367 ± 22 days/year from cycle length and visual layer counting, respectively, statistically indistinguishable from the estimate based on the LA‐ICP‐MS record determined by line‐scanning (chemical layer counting; see Figure 7 and section 2.8).

    The number of laminae per year is in close agreement with previous estimates of the number of days in a Late Cretaceous year based on independent counts of diurnal increments in various fossil taxa (Pannella, 1972: 375 days/year; Berry and Barker: 370.3 days/year) and calculations of tidal dissipation and the resulting deceleration of Earth's orbit (Laskar et al., 2004: 374.49 days/year; ocean model in Meyers & Malinverno, 2018 from Webb, 1982: ~375 days/year; Figure 7; results and explanation of estimates found in the literature are given in Appendix 1). ...


    The δ13C and δ18O records can be compared to ice cores where they overlap in time.

    They don't say how the geological age is determined.

    This is similar to the Talking Coral Heads, providing further consilience with the age dating methods.

    The Campanian (83.6 ± 0.5 to 72.1 ± 0.2 Ma) is an late part of the Cretaceous era

    quote:
    Campanian - Wikipedia

    The Campanian is the fifth of six ages of the Late Cretaceous epoch on the geologic timescale of the International Commission on Stratigraphy (ICS). In chronostratigraphy, it is the fifth of six stages in the Upper Cretaceous series. Campanian spans the time from 83.6 (± 0.7) to 72.1 (± 0.6) million years ago. It is preceded by the Santonian and it is followed by the Maastrichtian.[2]

    The Campanian was an age when a worldwide sea level rise covered many coastal areas. The morphology of some of these areas has been preserved: it is an unconformity beneath a cover of marine sedimentary rocks.[3][4]


    So this also has implications for climate change issues -- CO2 levels and ocean depths.

    Enjoy


    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
    ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
    to share.


    Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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