Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Moral issues and the Justice system or something like that
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1 of 171 (873140)
03-10-2020 2:07 PM


This may not really deserve a new topic but it doesn't seem to belong on any other thread I can find, including the current thread on morality.
I recently watched the documentary on Netflix titled "The Trials of Gabriel Fernandez" about an eight-year-old boy who died of abuse by his mother and her boyfriend. Specifically he was beaten to death but he had also suffered horrific abuse of many other kinds over the couple of years he had lived with them. (Before that he had lived with a gay uncle and his partner, then his grandparents, all off whom loved him and took good care of him. His mother had given him to the uncle when he was born and I'm not sure why the grandparetns took over at one point, but eventually the mother wanted him back, which was probably to get the welfare money.) He had two older siblings, from the same parents, who were not abused or at least not to the same extent. Their testimony in the trial brought out things nobody had known, about Gabriel's being locked in a small wooden box for long periods of time without food or bathroom breaks, being forced to eat dirty cat litter (which was found in his stomach on autopsy). His mother would hit him in the face and used the buckle end of a belt on his behind. His hair had been pulled out leaving scars on his scalp and he had cigarette burn marks on him as well as bruises and cuts all over his body.
Although there were a couple of people who saw the abuse and tried to intervene, called child protective services etc., there was no action taken to help the child. Routine checks by social workers and police responses to calls about the abuse all overlooked the actual situation, accepted what the mother told them and didn't ask to talk to the child etc. Often no report at all was written about such visits though the call was recorded in the log books.
But all that is background. What prompted me to write this was all the discussion about how "evil" the boyfriend was or wasn't. Some of the jurors and others interviewed called him "evil" but one witness at the trial said he had worker for her at her facility for elderly people and was wonderfully kind and caring toward them, and that they all loved him. She called him a "good" man. She had to admit that if he had abused the child as charged, even beaten him to the point that he died, that he was more complicated than she knew but she still had to say that he must have a "good" side to him.
All this kind of annoyed me, since to my mind the main thing was whether or not he had killed the child and how the law should deal with him for that crime. All the talk about a good side or his being totally evil just seemed irrelevant to me and something that shouldn't be muddying up the real issues. One juror kept getting hung up on these side issues and bringing him around to the criminal facts was difficult but in the end they succeeded.
The boyfriend was convicted of first degree murder and eventually sentenced to death. Although I don't think they proved actual intent to kill, the fact was clear enough that his actions had killed the boy and the conviction and sentence fit the facts of the case. (The mother was to be tried separately but she ended up pleading guilty to avoid the death penalty and was sentenced to life in prison without parole. She gave a statement of remorse for her actions. The boyfriend never said a word through his whole trial.)
In a way it's hard to say what I want to get at here. I keep losing my own frame of reference. Something about being annoyed that issues were brought up about morality that people shouldn't have to spend so much time trying to resolve. I guess this is because I have the Christian point of view that we're all sinners, any of us could have been in circumstances that caused us to act criminally, in a way it's all God's grace if we don't. But nevertheless crimes must be punished. The Bible clearly says that if someone kills a human being he must die for it. So all the ponderings about whether or not someone is completely evil or partially evil or whatenot are just red herrings.
Maybe I'll figure out more cldearly what I'm trtrying to say if this gets discussed.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Stile, posted 03-11-2020 8:24 AM Faith has replied
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-12-2020 5:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 3 of 171 (873188)
03-11-2020 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Stile
03-11-2020 8:24 AM


Thank you for responding and for your point of view. Yes we agree about this.
The man horrifically abused the little boy and eventually killed him by his beatings. What he and the boy's mother did to the child is almost beyond imagining. Hitler didn't personally hurt anyone, it was all at a distance from him, but this man caused horrible pain and suffering to a little boy, and so did the boy's mother. It is so sad that all the agencies that were formed to help a child in such a situation failed him miserably.
I WAS thinking that maybe one has to have the Christian perspective to avoid all this unnecessary pondering about a good side and so on, but I'm glad to hear that is not necessary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Stile, posted 03-11-2020 8:24 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by ringo, posted 03-11-2020 11:57 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 7 of 171 (873231)
03-11-2020 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
03-11-2020 1:24 PM


As for Christian, well there are two opposing messages from Christianity as far as justice goes, the first is retribution which is very old testament, the other is forgiveness which is very Jesus. The criminal justice system is pointed almost entirely towards retribution. We've got a long way to go there.
This is a common but totally wrong current idea. People are always taking Jesus' teachings which were meant only for individuals and usually only believers for that matter, and wrongly applying them to governments. Jesus clearly said "My Kingdom is not of this world." He NEVER addressed the kingdoms of this world, He only addressed the people he was making into citizens of HIS Kingdom which is not of this world.
His teachihngs do not apply to governments. Earthly governments have the responsibility to protect their citizens for one thing so you can't have a government "turning the other cheecki" but people absurdly try to apply it to governments. And with the death penalty, Jesus did not contradict Old Testament law on such points at all. He never said one thing to abrogate the death penalty. He taught individuals individually not to seek vengeance FOR PERSONAL OFFENSES, he never said one thing about punishment by the government of capital crimes. In general He upheld the Old Testament on everything it teaches, merely made the law against diveroce stricter and taught INDIVIDUALS not to exact vengeance. The state MUST exact vengeance, that's its job you could say. People so completely misunderstand all this it's hard to talk about it, but the death penalty is RIGHT for murderers and it is in fact a violation of God's law to spare their lives.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 03-11-2020 1:24 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Tangle, posted 03-11-2020 5:19 PM Faith has replied
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 03-12-2020 12:28 AM Faith has replied
 Message 19 by ramoss, posted 03-12-2020 10:45 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 11 of 171 (873250)
03-12-2020 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tangle
03-11-2020 5:19 PM


Sorry, you're wrong. The death penalty is entirely Christian. I'm sorry Catholics are too liberal to understand that, and like many others misread the Bible.
There are always going to be mistakes, people who were wrongly convicted. We should do everything possible to prevent that, even curtailing executions until the system is more reliable at identifying miscarriages of justice. But not because there's something wrong with the death penalty as the just sentence for certain crimes, because there isn't.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tangle, posted 03-11-2020 5:19 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 03-12-2020 9:37 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 03-12-2020 11:44 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-12-2020 5:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 12 of 171 (873251)
03-12-2020 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by vimesey
03-12-2020 2:45 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
All this is just the confusion society has fallen into over the last few decades or so, the confusion between crimes and justice. Justice is not murder, the death penalty is justice, not murder. Confusing these things is just one symptom of the insanity that has been overtaking society.
This is a PRINCIPLE I'm talking about. When there are many wrongly judged cases then executions should be stopped until only the truly guilty are executed.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by vimesey, posted 03-12-2020 2:45 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by vimesey, posted 03-12-2020 9:16 AM Faith has replied
 Message 21 by Aware Wolf, posted 03-12-2020 12:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 13 of 171 (873253)
03-12-2020 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
03-12-2020 12:28 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
This is a spurious argument. The validity of the death penalty is a completely separate issue from the fact that mistakes in judgment of particular cases may be made.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 03-12-2020 12:28 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 03-13-2020 11:10 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 171 (873261)
03-12-2020 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by vimesey
03-12-2020 9:16 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
It's not even murder if it's carried out by mistake against an innocent person. We don't charge people with murder when it was an accident that killed a person. Murder takes criminal intent.
Since we still have too many cases of unjust convictions, I'm for putting a hold on executions for that reason although in principle executing murderers is justice.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by vimesey, posted 03-12-2020 9:16 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by PaulK, posted 03-12-2020 9:32 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 17 by vimesey, posted 03-12-2020 9:33 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 171 (873280)
03-12-2020 5:12 PM


Gosh, everybody's so eager to keep murderers alive, wow. But killing babies is just fine. Weird.

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 03-12-2020 7:56 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 35 by ramoss, posted 03-14-2020 6:25 PM Faith has replied
 Message 56 by Aussie, posted 03-16-2020 2:23 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 171 (873281)
03-12-2020 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by vimesey
03-12-2020 9:33 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
There are some cases where there is absolutely no doubt about the guilt. Those should be executed if there's any way to separate them from the doubtful ones.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by vimesey, posted 03-12-2020 9:33 AM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Taq, posted 03-13-2020 12:41 PM Faith has replied
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 03-14-2020 9:17 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 171 (873325)
03-14-2020 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Stile
03-14-2020 9:17 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Was there any doubt about Ted Bundy? Or the case I've described for that matter?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 03-14-2020 9:17 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Stile, posted 03-24-2020 3:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 171 (873326)
03-14-2020 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taq
03-13-2020 12:41 PM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Jesus was teaching us a lesson about hypocrisy in the incident of the woman caught in adultery. He challenged the Jews who were ready to stone her that only the one without sin should cast the first stone. This has nothing to do with governments. Jesus never ever addressed governments except to say give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what s God's. He came to save the lost, He came to redeem individuals, He came to build the Kingdom of God, not teach governments. Scripture says clearly that governments are given by God the authority to deal with criminals, that without any mention of any further teaching needed.
And we are not to use any part of scripture to overturn any other part of scripture. The only time Jesus did anything even mildly like that He didn't change anything, He merely emphasized the strictness of the Law that Moses had loosened for divorce. When He told us not to take a life for a life and so on He was addressing individuals who would be tempted to take vengeance. he was not addressing the state.
What God told Noah stands and is not to be overturned: Whoever takes the life of a human being is to be put to death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Taq, posted 03-13-2020 12:41 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 03-14-2020 11:58 AM Faith has replied
 Message 57 by Taq, posted 03-16-2020 4:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 33 of 171 (873335)
03-14-2020 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
03-14-2020 11:58 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Sorry. Jesus is God, He did not contradict the Old Testament scriptures. Period.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 03-14-2020 11:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 03-14-2020 12:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 36 of 171 (873365)
03-15-2020 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by ramoss
03-14-2020 6:25 PM


Sure, call it by another name so you can kill babies. That's all that is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ramoss, posted 03-14-2020 6:25 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by frako, posted 03-15-2020 10:42 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 38 of 171 (873384)
03-15-2020 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by frako
03-15-2020 10:42 AM


And your point is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by frako, posted 03-15-2020 10:42 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by frako, posted 03-15-2020 11:18 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 40 of 171 (873386)
03-15-2020 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by frako
03-15-2020 11:18 AM


The first example is of God's judgment, nothing to do with anything like abortion.
The second one doesn't seem to me to suggest the woman lost a baby, it's about her acceptability into Israel if I'm remembering the context correctly. If not please correct. If she's acceptable she will bear seed to an Israelite husband is how I read it.
The third prescribes the punishment to be meted out by the husband of a woman who lost their baby because of violence against her. How is that having nothing against the loss of a baby in the womb?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by frako, posted 03-15-2020 11:18 AM frako has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 03-16-2020 11:40 AM Faith has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024