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Author Topic:   Moral issues and the Justice system or something like that
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 16 of 171 (873263)
03-12-2020 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
03-12-2020 9:24 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
quote:
It's not even murder if it's carried out by mistake against an innocent person.
I think this goes beyond the level of a simple mistake. And I doubt that it’s the only example of that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 03-12-2020 9:24 AM Faith has not replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 17 of 171 (873264)
03-12-2020 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
03-12-2020 9:24 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
The conviction of the innocent person is the mistake.
The decision to kill convicted people (instead of locking them up for life) knowing that mistakes will happen when it comes to convicting people, is a deliberate choice which you know will, from time to time, kill innocent people. Because mistakes are inevitable. The death sentence is therefore murder when it is carried out on an innocent person.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 03-12-2020 9:24 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 171 (873265)
03-12-2020 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
03-12-2020 7:49 AM


Faith writes:
The death penalty is entirely Christian.
Only for the deplorable barbaric Christian Cult of Revulsion. The Death Penalty goes directly against everything Jesus taught.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

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 Message 11 by Faith, posted 03-12-2020 7:49 AM Faith has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 631 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 19 of 171 (873269)
03-12-2020 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
03-11-2020 4:16 PM


"Vengence is mine' saith the lord" . that means it is god's , not yours, not mine, not 'the state'. It's God's.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 20 of 171 (873270)
03-12-2020 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
03-12-2020 7:49 AM


Faith writes:
The death penalty is entirely Christian.
Not according to Jesus:
quote:
John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
You're the one who is misreading the Bible. It's right there, as plain as day.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

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Aware Wolf
Member (Idle past 1439 days)
Posts: 156
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 21 of 171 (873271)
03-12-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
03-12-2020 7:53 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
... then executions should be stopped until only the truly guilty are executed.
That might be a nice compromise. Leave the death penalty on the books, but in practice never implement it since the day will never come that only the truly guilty is executed.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 171 (873280)
03-12-2020 5:12 PM


Gosh, everybody's so eager to keep murderers alive, wow. But killing babies is just fine. Weird.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 56 by Aussie, posted 03-16-2020 2:23 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 171 (873281)
03-12-2020 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by vimesey
03-12-2020 9:33 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
There are some cases where there is absolutely no doubt about the guilt. Those should be executed if there's any way to separate them from the doubtful ones.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by vimesey, posted 03-12-2020 9:33 AM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Taq, posted 03-13-2020 12:41 PM Faith has replied
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 03-14-2020 9:17 AM Faith has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 171 (873284)
03-12-2020 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
03-10-2020 2:07 PM


Good and evil is not binary
In a way it's hard to say what I want to get at here. I keep losing my own frame of reference. Something about being annoyed that issues were brought up about morality that people shouldn't have to spend so much time trying to resolve. I guess this is because I have the Christian point of view that we're all sinners, any of us could have been in circumstances that caused us to act criminally, in a way it's all God's grace if we don't. But nevertheless crimes must be punished. The Bible clearly says that if someone kills a human being he must die for it. So all the ponderings about whether or not someone is completely evil or partially evil or whatenot are just red herrings.
Maybe I'll figure out more cldearly what I'm trtrying to say if this gets discussed.
I think what you might be trying to elucidate is the degrees to which someone can fall on a scale of good to evil. Perhaps their mentioning of him being a good caretaker was to show the dichotomy of behaving genuinely compassionately in one instance and yet paradoxically behaving in a manner so appalling that it shocks the conscience as a way to explain that they didn't see this coming.
Its possible for cartel members to read their children a bedtime story and do everything in their power to love those children while simultaneously being able to disassociate themselves by murdering and torturing someone else's child just to exact revenge on their enemies.
Serial killers are also often able to live productive lives and raise families while secretly fantasizing and carrying out horrific rapes and murders.
I think good and evil is not binary. Terrible people are occasionally capable of doing something good while good people are occasionally capable of doing something terrible.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 03-10-2020 2:07 PM Faith has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 171 (873291)
03-12-2020 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
03-12-2020 7:49 AM


Vengeance is mine saith the Lord
Sorry, you're wrong. The death penalty is entirely Christian. I'm sorry Catholics are too liberal to understand that, and like many others misread the Bible. There are always going to be mistakes, people who were wrongly convicted. We should do everything possible to prevent that, even curtailing executions until the system is more reliable at identifying miscarriages of justice. But not because there's something wrong with the death penalty as the just sentence for certain crimes, because there isn't.
As usual, the bible constantly contradicts itself... but here are some basic precepts that Jesus spoke in stark contrast to the very Law that demands and commands death.
quote:
You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ (good for nothing) is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. -- Matthew 5:21
quote:
You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." -- Matthew 5:38-48
quote:
"Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: It is mine to avenge; I will repay, says the Lord. On the contrary:
If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." -- Romans 12:17-21
quote:
At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say? They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her. Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?
No one, sir, she said.
Then neither do I condemn you, Jesus declared. Go now and leave your life of sin. -- John 8:2-11
As you can see, Jesus never denied the Law... He said the Law was valid. What they did not understand was that he was setting himself up as the propitiation of the Law which therefore did away with its rigorous constraints -- not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.
The bible also says that you, being a woman, need to go outside the gates of the city when you're menstruating. Having not done that makes you eligible for death. Ever eaten a shrimp? Death to you then. Do you see where I am going with this? Because Jesus himself tried to make it very clear that every one of us violated the law and therefore are worthy of death... that is until he became that guilt offering.
If you want capital punishment then you want to reinstitute the Law of Moses.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 03-12-2020 7:49 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 26 of 171 (873293)
03-12-2020 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
03-12-2020 5:12 PM


Once again Faith you simply lie. No one has said killing babies is okay; it is only the Christian Cult of Revulsion that equates abortion to killing babies because they are too out of touch with honesty or reality.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 27 of 171 (873304)
03-13-2020 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
03-12-2020 8:15 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
This is a spurious argument. The validity of the death penalty is a completely separate issue from the fact that mistakes in judgment of particular cases may be made.
No Faith it just happened, it's real, a man innocent of the charges he was executed for was killed.
That is not justice, it is a miscarriage of justice that results in the unwarranted murder of a person.
Contrast that to life in prison, which ends in death of old age. An innocent person can be freed, a murdered person cannot be revived.
How is execution better?
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 03-12-2020 8:15 AM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 28 of 171 (873310)
03-13-2020 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
03-12-2020 5:15 PM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Faith writes:
Those should be executed if there's any way to separate them from the doubtful ones.
quote:
According to the Gospel of John, the Pharisees, in an attempt to discredit Jesus, brought a woman charged with adultery before him. Then they reminded Jesus that adultery was punishable by stoning under Mosaic law and challenged him to judge the woman so that they might then accuse him of disobeying the law. Jesus thought for a moment and then replied, He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her. The people crowded around him were so touched by their own consciences that they departed. When Jesus found himself alone with the woman, he asked her who were her accusers. She replied, No man, lord. Jesus then said, Neither do I condemn thee: go and sin no more.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 03-12-2020 5:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 03-14-2020 9:55 AM Taq has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 29 of 171 (873322)
03-14-2020 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
03-12-2020 5:15 PM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Faith writes:
There are some cases where there is absolutely no doubt about the guilt. Those should be executed if there's any way to separate them from the doubtful ones.
I, actually, completely agree with this statement.
But, I think there's a lot of confusion/disagreement on what "such cases" actually are.
Which cases are "worthy" of killing the criminal? - Some are easy to identify, others are not - the issue isn't the easy-to-identify ones, it's for the hard ones - where does the line get drawn?
Also, the big question is: How do we, actually, "separate them from the doubtful ones?"
Our track record on this terrible.
And I don't like the idea of "trying to figure these out" by implementing systems that "might work and might not" - it's gambling with innocent people's lives.
Is there a way to "figure out" these issue without trial-and-error on innocent lives and then implement a "perfect system?"
-if so, I would be interested in looking at it and probably implementing it
-but nothing like this is possible or even proposed at this point - as long as this is the fact-of-the-matter: I find it abhorrent to "gamble with innocent people's lives" just because others would appreciate it if it did actually get figured out "one day."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 03-12-2020 5:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 03-14-2020 9:48 AM Stile has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 171 (873325)
03-14-2020 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Stile
03-14-2020 9:17 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Was there any doubt about Ted Bundy? Or the case I've described for that matter?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 03-14-2020 9:17 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
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