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Author | Topic: Morality without God is impossible | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I dont have access to transcripts from which to quote. I will show you a bit more about Dr.Garwood, however.
Cross & Crown Church Sermons About Dr.Garwood: Dr. Jason Garwood has spent his career seeking to both understand and apply the Biblical worldview to every single area of life. His aim is to help pastors and churches to be better equipped to engage in the Great Commission by teaching Christians how to find their individual purpose in the Kingdom of God and learn how to identify and respond to cultural idols. Jason is the author of several books, including Reconstructing the Heart, Have Yourself an Eschatological Christmas, and The Politics of Humanism (forthcoming); He has written articles for various outlets and blogs at jasongarwood.com; He is a co-host of Cross & Crown Radio; He has preached and lectured internationally, exposing the underling errors and problems with anti-biblical worldviews, applying the Scripture to topics such as: government education, abortion, the drug war, immigration, and vaccines; and You can find him at college campuses, high schools, and political meetings and events seeding the gospel of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. He has been married to his wife, Mary, for 13 years; They have three children; He makes his home in Warrenton, Virginia. You likely will label him disdainfully as "another Biblical Christian" but he has read and studied the Bible at least as much as you have. I heard a couple of his sermons and liked them. They made sense.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
The answer is that you understand that GOD, if GOD exists is NOT any of the Gods or gods we have created. Great. So then, how do you believe in this "GOD"? Traditionally, we have come to know GOD through the character and life of His Son, Jesus Christ. We study scriptural precepts as to how best to approach the challenges of life. We use logic, reason, and reality, but we also have a desire to know God as best as we can. If, as you claim, none of our created Gods are correct, you impose on us no method, means, or opportunity to get to somewhat know the One whom we worship. You have seemingly gotten around that by simply creating and answering a charge--a way to live your life intentionally and honorably through doing what Jesus said to do. Fine, great even. Surely at least some Episcopals believe that Jesus is alive in our hearts and minds today. Whenever I ask you, all I get are more questions. You are a man with limitless questions and few answers. I hit this same roadblock with ringo. He always has stated that the message requires no messenger. This contrasts sharply with what I was taught of the importance of knowing God. In fact, your entire worldview suggests that it is impossible. Perhaps this is why you always taught your students to throw Him away. I prefer listening to Dr.Garwood, who arrives at no such similar conclusion.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
We have no proof of this. As you once argued with Stile, there may be a "place" we've overlooked or not examined. Your "all" is tentative at best.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
One man's confirmation bias is another man's search for contrary points of view.
I do search for points of view which support, rather than challenge yours, but I find your type of thinking scarce on the internet. You seem to fit in with atheists better than you do believers. For the sake of this basic argument, I will concede that I personally believe that morality is our responsibility--not Gods. My argument is to support the basic idea that anything is impossible without God. Unbelievers would protest, of course. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Is there any evidence that God exists regardless of what people believe about Him?
Should a lack of evidence be any grounds for rethinking one's worldview? Is there any evidence that Christian belief and thinking have influenced the world more so in a good way than a bad way? What does the evidence show?The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
OK you present a good case.
So would you then argue that morality with or without God is essentially the same thing? Have we now proof that morality is a human responsibility?The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: The acts though stand on their own regardless of motivation. The naked clothed are still clothed. The hungry fed are still fed. The homeless sheltered are still sheltered. the sick healed are still healed. The weak protected are still protected.GDR writes: OK, but that isn't what made the sheep sheep. jar writes: Wait a minute! Are you (jar) telling us that sheep become sheep through their own effort and decisions? I suppose that would mean that goats decide to be goats. Maybe that does make sense. I hope not though. Why should I be responsible for my own human nature? Its Gods job to steer me in the direction I am to walk. But that IS what made the sheep sheep. It was feeding and clothing and sheltering and comforting and protecting and ...The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: Because there is no other absolute standard. You say as much in point#4.
First, why can't there be an absolute morality without god? Second this god could have a morality we didn't like, for example he could be the god of the Old Testament who is a total bastard. The evidence shows that it was the people who were being total bastards to each other in the name of survival of some of them. God was simply a plot device they used to justify their actions.
Third, what is an absolute morality anyway? Can you describe one? If there was one, how could free will exist? Good question. Could we even describe a hypothetical one? That pesky free will, anyway! It even allows us to rationalize the idea of God clear off of the page.
Fourth, we know that in fact our morality is relative, so ? So here we are.
Fifth, morality is actually a biological and social construct, god has nothing to do with it Humans cant really decide what God has anything to do with. We can claim He does not exist and get rid of the problem that way, but we cant include Him and also define His character if we are honest.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I will admit that my brain is being challenged by these questions, but I will have a go at it. To begin with, I ask myself (and the peanut gallery) some basic questions.
I conclude not. There is no evidence of modern believers doing great things that would change and/or help society.
That all being said, I don't believe that God is evil. He is at worst firm and unchanging. Humans are so far off the mark that we were intended for. ringo brought it out of me. Why is it that none of us trust God enough to give all of our surpluses away to each other until everyone has enough to eat? I have no answer except to say that I cant.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile: All that's left is our intellect - and we are free to focus on what we want - different for everyone.
Serpant: Hey buddy. humans are all that there is. You will be as gods. Don't listen to myths. Stile: Errr.thanks for the advice, but why am I talking to a snake? Sounds like I'm delusional!
Snake: Of course you are. Evidence always shows us the way. We are all unique and different and we all have a right to exist. Its how I convinced the Big Guy to even let me hang out here. Stile: Nice try, Phat. What is the point of your analogy though? Humor. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
All I know is that the Enlightenment birthed modern-day liberalism. For better OR worse.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: No more than its beyond your comprehension how much we believe. You can't believe it possible, no matter what I say, you and Phat and Faith just can't believe that I believed as strongly as you do now. It's literally beyond your comprehension.All that you can surmise (based on your current evidence-based worldview) is that our beliefs keep us from your current position. And I very much doubt that you felt exactly as we do now. One cannot have a relationship with Jesus and then simply toss Him aside as "new and better" evidence alters their worldview. It will never happen like that.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: See? The problem with your new and improved worldview is that you *know* that this worldview leads to what actually is and not what you once believed.
People interested in finding out what is actually correct...
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You don't know how to work out whether something you feel is actually factually correct. Neither did you. You simply took a leap towards evidence despite there being none conclusive. Factually correct, in scientific terms, only means pending new evidence. You never knew Santa Claus because he was a myth. None of us did. And the Jesus you "threw away" was nothing more than a cultural icon. You never knew Him personally. You may well have known the Priest personally, but that's a different animal. And yes, I know that your argument is on the science/evidence side of the ledger so I can never win it. Which is fine. One man's worldview is another man's delusion now rejected.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
PK writes: GDR has no need to find the truth. And the only person who thinks that GDR is trying to "fool them" is one who has predetermined that they are foolproof. You may say that a believer is one who always attempts to verify their belief while a skeptic(a proud skeptic, I might add) always tries to falsify rather than verify. For the skeptic, the falsification brings inner validity to their method while to GDR (perhaps, I have yet to ask him) finds that verification rather than falsification brings him inner validity and peace. NT Wright has chosen to be an apologist. Others have chosen the professions of skeptic and debunker. To each his own.
GDR claims his method is all about getting to the truth, but he’s lying to himself (and I say that because he’d have to be really stupid to think he could fool anyone else like that).
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