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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Moral issues and the Justice system or something like that | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Jesus was teaching us a lesson about hypocrisy in the incident of the woman caught in adultery. He challenged the Jews who were ready to stone her that only the one without sin should cast the first stone. This has nothing to do with governments. Jesus never ever addressed governments except to say give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what s God's. He came to save the lost, He came to redeem individuals, He came to build the Kingdom of God, not teach governments. Scripture says clearly that governments are given by God the authority to deal with criminals, that without any mention of any further teaching needed.
And we are not to use any part of scripture to overturn any other part of scripture. The only time Jesus did anything even mildly like that He didn't change anything, He merely emphasized the strictness of the Law that Moses had loosened for divorce. When He told us not to take a life for a life and so on He was addressing individuals who would be tempted to take vengeance. he was not addressing the state. What God told Noah stands and is not to be overturned: Whoever takes the life of a human being is to be put to death.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
It certainly has to do with justice systems. Jesus was directly addressing the justice system of the Jews, in which the people carried out the verdict themselves. The clear meaning of his words was that nobody is qualified to impose a death sentence - not a lynch mob and not a judge and jury.
This has nothing to do with governments. Jesus never ever addressed governments except to say give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what s God's. Faith writes:
That is not what God told Noah. What God told Noah stands and is not to be overturned: Whoever takes the life of a human being is to be put to death.quote:"At the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man". That is clearly not about capital punishment. Beasts are not executioners. It's a prediction of violence against man, by beasts and by other men. Faith writes:
Exactly. You are not allowed to use your twisted version of "what God told Noah" to overrule Jesus. And we are not to use any part of scripture to overturn any other part of scripture."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sorry. Jesus is God, He did not contradict the Old Testament scriptures. Period.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
I didn't say He did. I said you contradicted Him. Sorry. Jesus is God, He did not contradict the Old Testament scriptures. Period. God also forbade capital punishment for Cain, the first murderer - and what He said to Noah had nothing to do with capital punishment."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ramoss Member (Idle past 612 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Of course, no one is wanting babies to be killed. A fetus of course, is not a baby.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sure, call it by another name so you can kill babies. That's all that is.
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frako Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. Numbers 5 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. Otherwise, in poetic terms, it is described that she will lose the baby, by judgment of God. Exodus 21:22-25: If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
And your point is?
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frako Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
the bible has nothing against abortions or baby killing.
Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The first example is of God's judgment, nothing to do with anything like abortion.
The second one doesn't seem to me to suggest the woman lost a baby, it's about her acceptability into Israel if I'm remembering the context correctly. If not please correct. If she's acceptable she will bear seed to an Israelite husband is how I read it. The third prescribes the punishment to be meted out by the husband of a woman who lost their baby because of violence against her. How is that having nothing against the loss of a baby in the womb? Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
It shows that the fetus was considered the property of the husband. Killing it was like killing his ox. It was not considered murder. The third prescribes the punishment to be meted out by the husband of a woman who lost their baby because of violence against her. How is that having nothing against the loss of a baby in the womb?"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The OT doesn't regard killing the fetus as murder but it does regard it as a child. Which we know from other scriptures about God's knowing us in the womb and so on. And yes it was property, that doesn't make it less human.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Nonsense Faith. Even when a boy was born it was not seen as a human until it had lived for ten days. Only then was it given a name and a pain.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Chapter and verse? The OT doesn't regard killing the fetus as murder but it does regard it as a child. It was okay to kill a rebellious son:quote:At least he got a trial. Note that it doesn't say "child", it says "son", presumably of any age. Also, contrast with Jesus' prodigal son story. Faith writes: Which we know from other scriptures about God's knowing us in the womb and so on.quote:That's before we were in the womb. He knew our atoms. It has nothing to do with abortion. Faith writes:
Of course it does. Property is not human. Humans are not property. And yes it was property, that doesn't make it less human."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Please learn to tell the difference between the innocent and the guilty. I know it's hard but try. And the son in the example is generally understood to be a grown son, not a child. Like the priest Eli's grown sons who were considered by God to be Eli's responsibility.
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