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Author Topic:   Moral issues and the Justice system or something like that
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 5 of 171 (873204)
03-11-2020 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
03-11-2020 8:34 AM


Faith writes:
I WAS thinking that maybe one has to have the Christian perspective to avoid all this unnecessary pondering about a good side and so on....
I don't think it's a good idea to avoid pondering. The world needs more pondering, not less.
In the specific case, I don't think the good things that the culprit may have done have any relevance. The only question is, "Do we need to protect society from this guy?" and the answer is, "Yes."

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 03-11-2020 8:34 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 20 of 171 (873270)
03-12-2020 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
03-12-2020 7:49 AM


Faith writes:
The death penalty is entirely Christian.
Not according to Jesus:
quote:
John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
You're the one who is misreading the Bible. It's right there, as plain as day.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 03-12-2020 7:49 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 32 of 171 (873334)
03-14-2020 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
03-14-2020 9:55 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Faith writes:
This has nothing to do with governments. Jesus never ever addressed governments except to say give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what s God's.
It certainly has to do with justice systems. Jesus was directly addressing the justice system of the Jews, in which the people carried out the verdict themselves. The clear meaning of his words was that nobody is qualified to impose a death sentence - not a lynch mob and not a judge and jury.
Faith writes:
What God told Noah stands and is not to be overturned: Whoever takes the life of a human being is to be put to death.
That is not what God told Noah.
quote:
Genesis 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
"At the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man". That is clearly not about capital punishment. Beasts are not executioners. It's a prediction of violence against man, by beasts and by other men.
Faith writes:
And we are not to use any part of scripture to overturn any other part of scripture.
Exactly. You are not allowed to use your twisted version of "what God told Noah" to overrule Jesus.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 03-14-2020 9:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-14-2020 12:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 34 of 171 (873336)
03-14-2020 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
03-14-2020 12:41 PM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Faith writes:
Sorry. Jesus is God, He did not contradict the Old Testament scriptures. Period.
I didn't say He did. I said you contradicted Him.
God also forbade capital punishment for Cain, the first murderer - and what He said to Noah had nothing to do with capital punishment.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-14-2020 12:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 41 of 171 (873497)
03-16-2020 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
03-15-2020 11:24 AM


Faith writes:
The third prescribes the punishment to be meted out by the husband of a woman who lost their baby because of violence against her. How is that having nothing against the loss of a baby in the womb?
It shows that the fetus was considered the property of the husband. Killing it was like killing his ox. It was not considered murder.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 11:24 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 11:51 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 44 of 171 (873505)
03-16-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
03-16-2020 11:51 AM


Faith writes:
The OT doesn't regard killing the fetus as murder but it does regard it as a child.
Chapter and verse?
It was okay to kill a rebellious son:
quote:
Deuteronomy 21:18-20 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
At least he got a trial. Note that it doesn't say "child", it says "son", presumably of any age. Also, contrast with Jesus' prodigal son story.
Faith writes:
Which we know from other scriptures about God's knowing us in the womb and so on.
quote:
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee....
That's before we were in the womb. He knew our atoms. It has nothing to do with abortion.
Faith writes:
And yes it was property, that doesn't make it less human.
Of course it does. Property is not human. Humans are not property.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 11:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 12:22 PM ringo has replied
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 12:24 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 47 of 171 (873510)
03-16-2020 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
03-16-2020 12:22 PM


Faith writes:
Please learn to tell the difference between the innocent and the guilty.
Innocence or guilt is irrelevant because the fetus was considered to be property. Property is neither innocent nor guilty.
Faith writes:
And the son in the example is generally understood to be a grown son, not a child.
You "understanding" is often contradictory to what the Bible actually says.
And you haven't backed up your claim that, "The OT doesn't regard killing the fetus as murder but it does regard it as a child."

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 12:22 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 48 of 171 (873512)
03-16-2020 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
03-16-2020 12:24 PM


Faith writes:
Sorry, human beings have been regarded as property until very recently.
Yes indeed. That idea came from the Bible - and was rejected by our increasingly-secular society.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 12:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 12:45 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 50 of 171 (873516)
03-16-2020 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
03-16-2020 12:45 PM


Faith writes:
No it did not come from the Bible, the Bible merely reflects the practices of the times...
And those practices were all justified with quotes from the Bible. And you're still doing it.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 12:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 1:03 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 52 of 171 (873518)
03-16-2020 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
03-16-2020 1:03 PM


Faith writes:
Justifying it?
Yes. You have justified slavery yourself, using the Bible, right on this very forum.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 1:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 1:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 54 of 171 (873520)
03-16-2020 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
03-16-2020 1:12 PM


Faith writes:
As I said learn to read.
I did read. And everybody else can read too, so they know what the Bible says and they know what you said. You have used the Bible to justify slavery, as I said.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 1:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 1:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 101 of 171 (873631)
03-17-2020 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
03-16-2020 1:31 PM


Faith writes:
Of course you don't know how to read so this will fall on deaf ears in your case but perhaps someone else will have ears to hear.
Yeah, right back atcha - only I actually quote the Bible so those people can see what it actually says. You, on the other hand, have nothing to back up the apologetic claims that you have memorized.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 1:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 149 of 171 (874260)
03-27-2020 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by GDR
03-26-2020 4:04 PM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
GDR writes:
I would argue that every time an execution is carried out, that to one degree or another it dehumanizes the person that is the one carrying out the execution.
It dehumanizes the whole society. You can't affirm the value of life by killing people. We should be telling the Ted Bundys, "We don't kill people, no matter what. We're better than that."

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by GDR, posted 03-26-2020 4:04 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by GDR, posted 03-27-2020 6:33 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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