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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Moral issues and the Justice system or something like that | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Stile writes:
I don't disagree with your argument Stile but I'd like to add something to it. The point isn't that some obvious cases exist.The point is that many non-obvious cases exist. And, if you draw a line, the non-obvious ones lead to destroying innocent lives. Obviously. Therefore, the questions isn't "do I think Ted Bundy was obvious or not?"It doesn't really matter. The question is: If anyone (you?) wants to try and draw a line - where should it be? How does it make the non-obvious cases easier to identify correctly? Answer that question to remove all doubt of harming innocent people - and you'll have my vote. I don't think that there is any question about the guilt of Ted Bundy. I would also agree with Faith that he has forfeited any right that he has to life. However, when he was executed it required someone to carry out that execution. Yes, it was state sanctioned but that doesn't change the fact that we still require someone to carry it out, albeit voluntarily. We know enough about PTSD that we know that killing someone isn't done without having an effect on the one doing the killing, and for that matter on others involved in the act. I would argue that every time an execution is carried out, that to one degree or another it dehumanizes the person that is the one carrying out the execution. There are times no doubt that by taking a life, it will result in the saving of more lives and has to be done, but the execution of Ted Bundy does not fall into that category.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: I was thinking after I had made that last post that I should have included but never got around to editing it. It dehumanizes the whole society. You can't affirm the value of life by killing people. We should be telling the Ted Bundys, "We don't kill people, no matter what. We're better than that." Your statement is bang on.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: I probably shouldn't enter into this but I guess I will anyway. I understand choosing sin over God and being willing to take the consequences, stupid though that is, but I don't understand how you could let your flawed moral standards judge God and reject Him on that flimsy basis. I resent your trying to pin your puny idea of morality on me as if that is the standard we should all adhere to. Others here do the same thing. I don't judge God because He's God and He made it all and He knows what He is doing. The report of His judgments should teach us about the terrors of the Moral Law. It's the height of foolishness to apply a self-centered human standard to God. "I am not like you" He has said. His judgments are hard for us to accept, and we wouldn't accept them if human beings came up with them, but . God's judgments are omniscient. And really they should teach us just how terrible are the operations of the Moral Law. We should learn that and learn from it the fear of God that is the beginning of wisdom, but instead fallen humanity has the effrontery to judge God by our ignorant vague and foggy standards. That's all you've done and it's all others here do. God isn't a human being, He's a terrifying Judge and yet a Judge who offers mercy to us fallen creatures. Oh well, there's no point. The thing is Faith is that Aussie isn't judging God. Aussie and others are judging your view of God. In actuality they are judging your understanding of how the Scriptures are meant to be understood. I think that you would agree that the Bible from Genesis to Jesus tells us that we are made in God's image. I don't have any idea what God looks like but as a Christian I believe that in order to try and image God, (and failing), I should look at the one who imaged Him perfectly. Jesus as the embodied Word of God in Jesus, is not compatible with an inerrant Bible, for the myriad of reasons such as commanding genocide and public stoning, which we have gone over numerous times before.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Faith writes: This happens all the time at EvC. In fact I kept thinking that as I watched this series. There is no point in arguing anything here from my point of view, because everyone here already *knows* the truth -- about absolutely everything I say too. Not one thing I say in defense of my own political or religious opinions could ever be true although you all think all I I have to do is produce the evidence. Ha Ha. You don't understand the logic or the psychology of what you are all doing here. Hi FaithLet me say this. I don't "know" that what I believe about God is correct. I believe it on faith. I have no doubt that at least some of what I believe is wrong, with the problem being I don't what part of what I believe is wrong. I just muddle along like everyone else. Also you have your beliefs about the nature of God, what He has done and what He is doing. I'd suggest though that you actually worship a quite different god than what you believe in. I'll give you a hypothetical. Let's say you had a fundamentalist Christian and Biblical inerrantist as president. You would of course say that would be wonderful. Now your president decrees that anyone caught in adultery should be publicly executed in a cruel manner as a lesson to others. Also, your president decrees that as Muslims are coming into the US and influencing Americans, and causing some to question their Christianity and maybe even converting to Islam, that the US should start a genocidal war on Islamic nations. God has told him that this must be done. I contend, at least I'd hope, that you would be properly horrified, and would argue that you had no idea that he/she would do this when you voted for him/her. I would also contend that if it was you that had been elected president that you would have no thought of doing such a thing yourself. However, in this thread and others you argue that God is beyond our human understanding of justice and so you accept and believe that when He commanded genocide and public stoning He was exercising justice as only God understands it. So again, I am suggesting that you don't actually worship the god that you believe in, and thankfully so.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Hi Faith
I only have a minute but I can respond more fully later. I apologize if I made this sound personal because it certainly wasn't meant that way. The point was not that a fundamentalist Christian president could, or ever would do such a thing. The point was, that they wouldn't. I was saying that you, or any other sane fundamentalist Christian, would consider never even for a second doing such an abhorrent thing. The problem is that an inerrant reading of the Bible does say that God commanded a very close parallel to the hypothetical I spelled out. So even though you agree that doing such a thing would be reprehensible, you are ok with accepting the idea that God did just that.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Faith writes: Judging by your feelings versus by the facts/evidence. How often that happens and how often people who THINK they are judging by the facts and evidence are not. OK Faith. Let's look at the facts and evidence. This is from Deuteronomy 7: quote: Contrast this from Matthew 5 and the Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount.
quote: How can you possibly contrast those two Biblical quotes and then claim that the nature of God can be seen in both quotes? And again in Deuteronomy 20 quote:Contrast this again with the words of Jesus in Matthew 5 quote:Once again. The views of the nature of God that we sometimes, but not usually, see in the OT are completely at the opposite ends of the spectrum. In Deuteronomy we are shown a cruel vengeful deity, very similar to the deities of their pagan neighbours, as opposed to the loving merciful God in the NT. Here are some quotes from the book of Joshua. quote: quote: Again contrast this from Luke 6 quote:This is again the words of Jesus who was a 1st century Jew living in a 1st century Jewish world under the brutal and total dominance of the Romans. They were in the promised land but still in excile. This is from Leviticus 24 quote:What does Jesus tell us in Matthew 5 quote:Jesus actually says, as He does in other places that the early prophets got it wrong. This from Numbers 15 quote: What does Jesus say in Luke 6 quote:Jesus even tells us to pray to be forgiven as we forgive others. I could go on but that is certainly enough. I am afraid Faith that I do not understand how your idea of God’s justice can be so different from one period to the next. I believe in the God as personified in Jesus who is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. The belief that you can harmonize beliefs in an inerrant Bible with the life and teaching of Jesus is just plainly obviously wrong. I’ll go with Jesus. Edited by GDR, : typoHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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