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Author Topic:   Coronavirus and Pandemics
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 406 of 955 (874457)
04-02-2020 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by JonF
04-02-2020 2:46 PM


Just like the Founders intended.
Or so our Constitutional Originalists would tell us.

But [Frederick] Douglass was not gone; he was merely dead. -- David W. Blight

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by JonF, posted 04-02-2020 2:46 PM JonF has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 407 of 955 (874458)
04-02-2020 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by Percy
04-02-2020 12:13 PM


Making Masks
Here's what I got back.
There are several recommended filters. I got Filtrete 2200, but they say anything above 1500 is ok. Filtrete and others make a hepa filter, but I couldn’t find any.
Filters are usually solid by type, so get the largest one available. I bought two 20 x 25. They have a wire mesh like chicken wire glued to them and it’s very easy to get poked by it.
These filters are really put together with a lot of glue so use a pocket knife so you don’t destroy the material..
To a second question I asked:
The one I got says it filters out bacteria, pollen etc, ...
The average filter is 600 - 800, which refers to density
Here's a You Tube page on making masks:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=How+to+make+...
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Percy, posted 04-02-2020 12:13 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 408 of 955 (874459)
04-02-2020 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by Chiroptera
04-02-2020 3:03 PM


Re: Just like the Founders intended.
There's competition with originalism on the right. Common-Good Constitutionalism - The Atlantic:
quote:
But originalism has now outlived its utility, and has become an obstacle to the development of a robust, substantively conservative approach to constitutional law and interpretation.{hardly universally accepted! - JonF} Such an approachone might call it common-good constitutionalismshould be based on the principles that government helps direct persons, associations, and society generally toward the common good, and that strong rule in the interest of attaining the common good is entirely legitimate. In this time of global pandemic, the need for such an approach is all the greater, as it has become clear that a just governing order must have ample power to cope with large-scale crises of public health and well-beingreading health in many senses, not only literal and physical but also metaphorical and social.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 409 of 955 (874461)
04-02-2020 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Faith
04-02-2020 3:11 PM


Re: Making Masks
Thanks for the info. Oddly, Home Depot is out of stock of all highly rated furnace filters while Lowe's has plenty in stock.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Faith, posted 04-02-2020 3:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 410 of 955 (874463)
04-02-2020 5:24 PM


To Mask Or Not To Mask.
When you cough you send out a pray of droplets at high velocity. These droplets fall away rapidly but can extend quite far. An asymptomatic carrier, not knowing they are infected, without a mask can put out quite a spray. With a mask, however, if not fully contained, the spray would be considerably less. How considerably I have no idea but I can imagine the velocity of the droplets through/around the mask to be a small fraction of the initial speed and would fall away within inches, not feet. The contagion is limited to the surfaces of the immediate surrounding area like hands, door handles, shopping carts, etc.
The uninfected person does not need a mask to keep out the virus since the virus, so we understand, does not aerosolize over distance, thus the 6 ft rule. The rest of the protocol involves touched surfaces. That is where washing hands, hand sanitizers and keeping your fingers out of your nose comes in.
That leaves the case of the asymptomatic carrier not wearing a mask as a growing vector of infection as the virus spreads to a larger share of the population. In Arizona, the incidence of disease is still small, but growing. As more become asymptomatic carriers I can see the utility of everyone wearing masks since this 6 foot rule is rather fuzzy and not really achievable for every interaction in a growing base of asymptomatic carriers. New York and the like should be doing this now. As in right now!
The problem I see is that there are not enough effectively functional masks. A home industry is born. Local seamstresses making masks for friends, family and profit.
I can also see where even cloth masks, less than HEPA/FDA effective, could be better than nothing given the circumstances. They can still be effective in keeping spewed droplets out of your mouth/nose unless you get in the direct line of fire of a full blown salvo from some ignorant negligent asshole.
Which brings me to the reason I’ve written this much so far. Other than just self-quarantine boredom.
Cloth masks are not one-use items. Even the standard surgical masks we bottom-feeders of society can no longer get are put into multi-use mode these days. So how do we clean them?
My idea is to dampen the mask, not drench it but just dab it, with a clean sheet of paper towel wet with ethanol then seal it in one of those zip-like baggies and let it fumigate for a day or two. Would this work?
I know ethanol in the guise of rubbing alcohol is as scarce as surgical masks and Lysol-like sprays in your local grocery/pharmacy store but for those who don’t know Everclear 190 proof grain alcohol (95% ethanol) is still available, at least in Arizona, in your local liquor store for about $25 a fifth (750 ml).
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Percy, posted 04-02-2020 8:25 PM AZPaul3 has replied
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 411 of 955 (874464)
04-02-2020 6:26 PM


Mask, Mask, and Mask
Percy is right.
Everyone needs to mask. Even a simple cloth mask.
New CDC recommendation.
White House Debates How Far to Go on Face Mask Guidelines - The New York Times
quote:
The Trump administration is expected to announce as soon as Thursday that all Americans should wear cloth masks or other face coverings if they go out in public, based on a forthcoming recommendation from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that would mark a shift in federal guidance amid new concerns that the coronavirus is being spread by infected people who have no symptoms.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 412 of 955 (874467)
04-02-2020 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by AZPaul3
04-02-2020 5:24 PM


Re: To Mask Or Not To Mask.
AZPaul3 writes:
Cloth masks are not one-use items. Even the standard surgical masks we bottom-feeders of society can no longer get are put into multi-use mode these days. So how do we clean them?
My idea is to dampen the mask, not drench it but just dab it, with a clean sheet of paper towel wet with ethanol then seal it in one of those zip-like baggies and let it fumigate for a day or two. Would this work?
I've never worn a standard surgical mask so I don't know what they're like. If they're cloth then they should survive ethanol fine. If they're more a paper product then I don't think they'd hold up very well.
But you might not need ethanol if it's true that the virus dies by itself outside the body, depending upon type of surface, 24 hours for cardboard, up to 72 hours for polypropylene plastic and stainless steel. We've been cycling our masks, using one and then letting it sit untouched for three days in the garage. Wear and tear on our masks is not great because we never wear them for more than a couple hours.
What I've read about mask reuse was specific to N95. I think I posted this before, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it. A significant portion of N95's effectiveness against actual virus (rather than virus contained in droplets) is an electrostatic property. Isopropyl alcohol greatly diminishes the electrostatic quality, and getting wet also significantly degrades the masks physical stiffness. I think the article I read said about 5 treatments with alcohol was the limit.
About the aerosol qualities of exhalations, coughs and sneezes, my own opinion is that they all include droplets and air that vary from large droplets containing entire flora all the way down to mere individual molecules, bacteria and virus. I haven't seen my view shared by anyone else, either here or in the press, but if we don't breath out a wide range of sizes of "stuff" then I'd need it explained to me by someone knowledgable why that doesn't happen, and even then I might not believe it. Also, one investigation I read about found detectable levels of coronavirus persisting in the air for up to 30 minutes after aerosolizing.
AbE: From This is How Long Coronavirus Can Survive on Plastic, Cardboard and in the Air:
quote:
As well as looking at the virus' viability on certain substances, the team looked at how long the virus can remain active in the air. Tests suggest it can remain airborne for up to three hours after aerosolization, explaining how mass gatherings can lead to multiple infections. Take for example, the dozens of people in Boston who are believed to have been infected at a Biogens conference.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : AbE.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by AZPaul3, posted 04-02-2020 9:27 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 415 by Coragyps, posted 04-02-2020 10:09 PM Percy has replied
 Message 417 by Faith, posted 04-03-2020 3:41 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 413 of 955 (874468)
04-02-2020 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by Percy
04-02-2020 8:25 PM


Re: To Mask Or Not To Mask.
Some new info on the subject.
Should you wear a face mask to prevent COVID-19? | Live Science
quote:
At first, the CDC advised health care workers to wear N95 respirators because it wasn't clear whether COVID-19 could spread through aerosol. A March 17 study in the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) seemed to justify the fear of airborne spread, showing that the new coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 could survive in the air for up to 3 hours as an aerosol.
But Yang doesn't see it that way. The new study showed that the virus was viable as an aerosol in a lab, but not in real life, he said. In the study, the researchers "took extremely concentrated virus, much more concentrated than a person makes, they used an artificial aerosol machine [a nebulizer], which probably generates way more aerosol than a normal person does," Yang said. "So their conclusions were in this system."
Still, I think you are right given the spread of asymptomatic carriers. Everyone, especially in hot spots, needs to mask when in public.
I like the "hang it on a hook for a few days before reuse" advice. Thanks for the response.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 414 of 955 (874469)
04-02-2020 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by Percy
04-02-2020 11:56 AM


Re: Masks Again
Um sure a mask can protect you from a sneeze from an infected person. But the amount of time booger droplets stay in the air is small. And when you hear someone coughing or sneezing you run the other way. Thing is it would be better for the infected person to wear the mask so that everything around the infected person doesn't get covered by virus infested mucus, you touch that then rub your eye and your infected and your mask dint do you any good.
That being said for this reason my country has decreed that you have to cover your mouth and nose with something when going shopping. Scarf, mask, bandanna, doesn't matter as long as it keeps your virus infested mucus from going everywhere. They don't let you in otherwise. You also get free gloves in front of shops and every cart is sanitised.
Just a few days ago we implemented some draconian movement regulations. Basically you cant go out of your county if its not for a good reason. Job, taking care of your grandparents you know sensible things, dunno how a cop would check your reason i think its manly for show to keep people home. but i still don't like it
We got a linear growth of infections. By an average of 40 per day. Some days more some days less. We tested about 1,2 % of our population. We have 900 infected, and 17 dead.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 415 of 955 (874470)
04-02-2020 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by Percy
04-02-2020 8:25 PM


Re: To Mask Or Not To Mask.
Spitballing again, but it seems that thirty minutes in 150F/65C oven would sterilize a mask pretty well. A paper or cotton mask, anyway - one that would partially melt wouldn’t do so well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Percy, posted 04-02-2020 8:25 PM Percy has replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 416 of 955 (874472)
04-03-2020 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by Percy
04-02-2020 8:30 AM


Re: The Latest US Coronavirus Graph
According to Ars Technica testing in the US has been hovering at about 100,000 a day since 27th March.
The increase in reported infection rate is not due to more testing, but due to a greater proportion of positive results.
This is very bad news for the US.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 417 of 955 (874473)
04-03-2020 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by Percy
04-02-2020 8:25 PM


Re: To Mask Or Not To Mask.
Nevada governor Thursday reuested (required?) that everyone wear something covering the face when leaving the house, a mask, a bandanna, anything. Homemade masks are becoming popular I understand, using patterns that can be found online, especially at You Tube, which I linked above to Percy.
Many of the grocery stores here are letting people in according to a certain predetermined number so that there are long lines forming outside. They have also painted yellow lines six feet apart to keep everyone at the prescribed social distance, both in the outside lines and in the lines at checkout, not sure where else.
As for spreading the virus through the air, I heard weeks ago that you don't even need to cough or sneeze to spread it, that merely breathing, talking etc, puts it into the air where it remains for something like three hours. This isn't talking about heavy droplets, but very fine mist.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 418 of 955 (874474)
04-03-2020 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by Coragyps
04-02-2020 10:09 PM


Re: To Mask Or Not To Mask.
Spitballing again, but it seems that thirty minutes in 150F/65C oven would sterilize a mask pretty well. A paper or cotton mask, anyway - one that would partially melt wouldn’t do so well.
Somehow today I caught mention of UV irradiation as a sterilization method. A few or more years ago, I saw an advert about a UV container for one's toothbrush for the same effect. No idea what it would take to obtain that.

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14174dm
Member (Idle past 1109 days)
Posts: 161
From: Cincinnati OH
Joined: 10-12-2015


Message 419 of 955 (874480)
04-03-2020 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by dwise1
04-03-2020 3:42 AM


Re: To Mask Or Not To Mask.
Would microwaving destroy virus? I could see killing celled organism by boiling interior liquid but virus is just string of DNA.
Edited by 14174dm, : Mis spelling

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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1025 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(2)
Message 420 of 955 (874481)
04-03-2020 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 419 by 14174dm
04-03-2020 7:29 AM


Re: To Mask Or Not To Mask.
Would microwaving destroy virus?
Don't know, but it would likely incinerate the cotton mask.
Not sure why you're all finding the question of sterilisation so complicated. Use boiling water.

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