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Author Topic:   Moral issues and the Justice system or something like that
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 159 of 171 (874511)
04-04-2020 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by GDR
04-03-2020 11:38 AM


Re: Judging God or Biblical Misunderstanding?
I reread this and since I didn't blow a gasket yet there's still one to blow and why waste it? . GDR, your ignorance of Christianity is appalling, and I know it's futile to try to change your mind, everything I say at EvC is futile, nothing new there, but I'll take one more swipe at this absurdity:
I'll give you a hypothetical. Let's say you had a fundamentalist Christian and Biblical inerrantist as president. You would of course say that would be wonderful. Now your president decrees that anyone caught in adultery should be publicly executed in a cruel manner as a lesson to others...
First of all a President of the United States can't decree any such thing, even if he were the complete idiot you make him out to be who wanted to do it. And again, this is no "fundamentalist Christian and Biblical inerrantist," this is the understanding of a total moron who could even imagine such an act or such an American President. Or maybe the President you have in mind is really from some other planet? Or maybe YOU are from some other planet.
Also, your president decrees that as Muslims are coming into the US and influencing Americans, and causing some to question their Christianity and maybe even converting to Islam, that the US should start a genocidal war on Islamic nations. God has told him that this must be done.
"Straw man" is too mild a term for this idiocy. Your understanding of both Christianity and Islam is dismally ridiculous and dangerous. I'll keep it simple because I've spelled out the theology before and all anyone says is how that's just *my* interpretation which contributes to the ridiculous and dangerous nature of the discussion. Christianity prescribes no violence whatever. Islam is built on violence.
I contend, at least I'd hope, that you would be properly horrified, and would argue that you had no idea that he/she would do this when you voted for him/her. I would also contend that if it was you that had been elected president that you would have no thought of doing such a thing yourself.
You make it a personal thing when it's an ideological thing. I would be "horrified" at the thought that anyone took such a President to be a Christian. As a Christian I couldn't recommend any such action myself BECAUSE IT'S NOT CHRISTIAN, nob becauase of some personal reaction against it, which is how *YOU* think, not I. Your entire theology, such as it is, comes out of your own PERSONAL distaste for some events in biblical history, you have no real theology, you have no real THOUGHT about any of it for that matter, you just have your feelings. So much of modern thought comes out of mere feelings without even a tinge of rational thought I'm not surprised but I am certainly appalled.
However, in this thread and others you argue that God is beyond our human understanding of justice and so you accept and believe that when He commanded genocide and public stoning He was exercising justice as only God understands it.
I argue for the inerrancy of the Bible and the sovereignty of God. You impose your own emotional misreadings on both. It doesn't matter to you that Christians know that what you are denouncing from your emotional stand has historical reasons that no longer apply, BECAUSE THEY ONLY APPLIED TO THE THEOCRACY OF ANCIENT ISRAEL WHICH AS A MATTER OF PRACTICAL FACT WERE PRETTY MUCH RESTRICTED TO STONING AS THE METHOD OF EXECURION. You continue with your emotional stand against the entire history of Christian theology. You can get away with that here in a little collection of nonexperts like EvC, I just hope you couldn't get away with it to any extent in the real world.
So again, I am suggesting that you don't actually worship the god that you believe in, and thankfully so.
The true God I worship can be a fearsome God who teaches us the dire consequences of sin, which you deny, but since He gives mercy to those who believe in Him and know He has given us a reprieve from those dire consequences, we can love and worship Him without fear. The Moral Law is a fearsome thing. Nobody escapes it. The Bible reveals its true horrific consequences so that we might understand the reality of them. It is extreme foolishness to try to an invent a God who does not judge by such fearsome consequences. That is what you are doing. You simply eliminate from your portrait of God everything that is fearsome, so you can have a nice God who isn't concerned about punishing sin. Reality on the other hand which is what the inerract Bible teaches is that the Moral Law judges all of us and if God had not provided the costly sacrifice of His Son in our place we'd all be in Hell. If you eliminate the judgment, if you eliminate Hell, if you eliminate the Moral Law, there is no need for the sacrifice of Christ in our place. And of coruse you've done all of that. Me, I'm grateful that God's love provides a way out of the horrific consequences of the Moral Law which decrees death for adultery as well as all other sins to one degree or another. I'm sorry you don't get it, but you can't get away with imposing your ridiculous fairytale god on the true God. You may for a while, sadly.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by GDR, posted 04-03-2020 11:38 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by GDR, posted 04-04-2020 4:44 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 160 of 171 (874512)
04-04-2020 4:36 PM


Making a Murderer again.
None of that belongs on this thread but it's too late now. But back to the topic, speaking of being appalled by human stupidity, the way the "justice" system acted against two absolutely innocent men they convicted of murder out of their own fantasies and their own planting of evidence in support of their fantasies, is beyond appalling. It certainly makes me wish for a world in which people didn't judge by their feelings as these officers of the justice system did.
We have wonderful rules of evidence and the presumption of innocence and much else to protect a person from wrongful accusation, but this story shows that none of that matters when people are so consumed by their personal feelings they ignore every bit of it and think they are acting justly because they FEEL these men are guilty. Over and over as I watch this story unfold I cry for the wrongfully convicted men and their families, and for the horrifically misled family of the murdered woman whose own bias is so against these men they can't even consider that the real murderer is still on the loose, but also for the system in which something like this could happen. I'm still hoping for a good outcome as a new lawyer who really cares about all these things is collecting exculpatory evidence, but even with this hope I can see how the very best of rational procedures could be undone by mere human prejudice.
AbE: Just one little incident comes to mind. There is a videotaped "confession" of the young man which makes it painfully obvious that he was influenced step by step by his interrogators into inventing the entire scenario he confessed to but the interrogation seemed to follow accepted procedure so his "confession" is taken for valid over and over again. Perhaps as a viewer of the film one has an objectivity they couldbn't have in the circumstances, but even after viewing the film a judge on a panel of judges convened for the purpose of deciding whether to vacate the prosecution of that young man says he sees no coercion in that interrogation. The coercion screams from the video and he doesn't see it and we are required to respect such a judgment as his. THE ENTIRE SCENARIO was invented by the interrogators. The kid was just going along with them out of a sort of obedience, a kid who had never had any sexual experience, and probably not even much sexual imagination given the kind of family he lived in and his low IQ, accepted the idea that he raped a woman and slit her throat, none of which had happened. That such a completely fabricated story could have been believed is scary.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 162 of 171 (874514)
04-04-2020 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by GDR
04-04-2020 4:44 PM


Re: Judging God or Biblical Misunderstanding?
I believe I understood you, GDR, and I believe I answered you. Sorry if it wasn't sufficient.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by GDR, posted 04-04-2020 4:44 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 163 of 171 (874519)
04-04-2020 7:31 PM


bias/feelings over evidence rule here, buttressed by more bias/feelings over evidence
Judging by your feelings versus by the facts/evidence. How often that happens and how often people who THINK they are judging by the facts and evidence are not. How is this proved? Is it possible to prove it? Well not in a tiny little pond like EvC it isn't. And I'm beginning to wonder if it ever is really no matter how good the rules of evidence are. I don't want to believe it's impossible but I have to admit I'm coming to think it is. Ten years at EvC is enough to set that one in concrete for me I'm afraid. And this film about a miscarriage of justice does such a nice job of confirming it. Scream all you like about facts and evidence for your own side, which at EviC will get you kudos galore if you share the establishment viewpoint, but you may really just be calling your own bias by the name of evidence. And of course accusing anyone who dissents from your view of being the deluded one. So we just toss the epithet back and forth. There's no way to prove it. If I'm right and youj're calling me wrong there's certainly no way with the vast majority here against me I stand a chance of proving anything. Read your own crap. Yes it's crap.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by GDR, posted 04-04-2020 11:37 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 164 of 171 (874521)
04-04-2020 11:07 PM


Making a Murderer, Making One Cynical EvC Member
Yeah me. Nothing new in this but the film series is bringing out things I've been through for years. Not that I care a whole lot about myself although of course that has to be part of it, I don't care that much about me despite all the snark I get along those lines, the disappointing thing is the unfairness itself, the fact that ideology prevails no matter what. And saying this, which I do from time to time, only gets more of the same snark, unfairness and ideological stupidity I'm talking about. It's tempting over and over again to try to get through such falseness and find out that people really aren't that closed in their little boxes after all, but it keeps turning out that they are. And here comes the tit for tats and all the rest of it. Retch.
This film series is in its last episode and things are continuing to go against the truth. The powers that be are a brick wall against the truth. I don't see how it could get better by the end of this episode.

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by PaulK, posted 04-05-2020 1:50 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 166 of 171 (874524)
04-05-2020 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by GDR
04-04-2020 11:37 PM


Re: bias/feelings over evidence rule here, buttressed by more bias/feelings over evidence
Hi GDR,
I don't want to discuss this old topic on this thread so I've moved your post to a new Coffee House thread, Continuing the Endless Discussion between GDR and traditional Protestantism, which I'll try to get back and answer later this evening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by GDR, posted 04-04-2020 11:37 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 168 of 171 (874526)
04-05-2020 1:53 AM


So They Made Their Murderer After All
The worst possibility was realized as I feared from the beginning of this last episode could happen. The lawyer Kathleen, says she isn't giving up, and she still has faith in the system, they just need to be given the evidence and they haven't received it despite all her efforts to present it.
I can't accept that after seeing this series. Corruption won, liars and deceivers won. In some cases you could say that understandably confused people won but they had so many chances just to follow the rules when instead they chose to ignore them and completely fabricate the evidence or just follow their own emotions. No, it's all corruption, corruption won no matter how you look at it. The rules are lovely but if you prefer to follow your own feelings and inclinations instead of following the rules then the rules might as well not exist.
I think it takes some kind of mental disorder to fail to see the coercion of the boy in his taped "confession." That alone shows the inevitability of lies prevailing over truth. How could anyone in their right mind not see what happened in that interrogation? That all by itself makes faith in the system a fool's errand, and faith in humanity laughable.
There is no Part 3, yet anyway. I suppose they'll make one. Maybe eventually they'll succeed in getting across the truth after two completely innocent men have been falsely imprisoned for decades and vilified by ignorant people as guilty of a horrific crime it's even doubtful either of them could have imagined let alone committed.
Not one person with a shred of integrity on the side that prosecuted them, not one who saw the evidence in this film, or even on that taped confession, had his/her eyes opened to see the gross injustice that has been done and is now conscience-driven to try to right the wrong. Not one so far. Where are they?
Some people see it, even some judges, but they have been outvoted by the corrupt and deluded. How very fallen is this fallen world. I may have cried more tears in this story than in any other I've ever watched. There is supposed to be a happy ending to such a story but this one is a case of corruption feeding corruption until the truth didn't stand a chance.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 04-06-2020 11:05 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 169 of 171 (874576)
04-06-2020 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
04-05-2020 1:53 AM


Re: So They Made Their Murderer After All
I had been avoiding this series at Netflix for a long time because I was tired of murder mysteries, but then Rush Limbaugh who has been home lately because of cancer treatments said how compelling it is. That's why I watched it. And I still feel like I've been punched in the stomach after the end of it. That's how Kathleen Zellner the lawyer so committed to freeing these men said she felt when she lost an appeal in a previous case. This kind of situation can destroy all faith in people and the legal system. There are still options though so I can hope for that.
It does, yes it does, remind me of the success of corruption in so many areas of life, such as the Left's corrupt attacks on the Trump administration. They haven't been successful beyond being noisy interruptions of life so far but it's easy to see how they could get there. It is scary that this can happn in any arena.
Anyway I need a Part 3 which releases these innocent men and records how they sued the powers that be and won bazillions in damages.
I also need a new movie to watch.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 04-05-2020 1:53 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 170 of 171 (874590)
04-06-2020 2:07 PM


Nature is so often the cure for human misery
This is so charming I can't stop listening to it myself and kept wanting to find a place to post it here. There really isn't a good place but since it's intended as a note of joy, peace and humor in unhappy circumstances this thread will probably do. I hope you all enjoy it.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 171 of 171 (874680)
04-08-2020 4:07 AM


IQ
Thinking about these men who were wrongly convicted of murder. Both have very low IQs, are called "slow learners." And I keep trying to understand what that really means. I assume it means some deficiencies in problem solving but in everyday life they both seem to have the ability to think through situations and communicate well enough. I don't know at what point I would recognize an IQ deficiency in a conversation with such a person. When, how, would it manifest? I guess I'm puzzling about this because I'm not sure I've ever spent much time with such a person. I'm not even sure what I'm puzzling about, or what I'm asking, it just became something about them that I don't think I grasp.
Steven Avery went to the law library in prison and studied the law related to his own situation enough to be able to submit some kind of appeal or claim to the court on his own behalf. That seems like a pretty decent intelligence. His nephew Brendan, who was so clearly coerced in the interrogation,, who supposedly has a somewhat higher IQ, does seem slow to grasp the meaning of questions about his situation. Again I'm not sure why this has captured my attention to this extent.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

  
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