Morality without God is impossible

Probably some atheists are more offended that some Christians. The point is though that the crap I was talking about is ubiquitous and in your face. The fact that there is a church in every town and you feel obliged to go to the occasional baptism just doesn't seem like much in comparison. I'm not saying that they aren't, but I haven't heard you complaining about it.

How do you get out of bed in the morning. That's a bit low. I have never said anything that could remotely give you the idea that I would think that. As a matter of fact I have a lot of respect for those who are atheistic because of the degree of suffering in the world. MY POV as we have gone over that we are called by a loving God to do something about it.

At least when an atheist anonymously feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, houses the homeless etc we know that he/she is doing it for the right reasons.

I’ll try and answer this in a roundabout way.I am a Christian theist. As a Christian I believe that God resurrected Jesus and so I can understand God’s nature by what we have in the Gospels even though they are humanly constructed compilations of the Jesus story. They all agree that Jesus was resurrected and IMHO there is no motivation to make it up, as a matter of fact, the whole thing was detrimental to their lives.Also, as a theist I believe that there is an intelligent origin to our lives and that this intelligence remains involved and we can to one degree or another understand things about this deity. Also, as a Theist it only makes sense to believe that there is a purpose, beyond living and reproducing, for our existence.The following is something I posted to Faith on another thread. The bottom line is that I am simply trying in my own mind to come to a conclusion of how I think this all works, based on what I know, what I believe from the Bible, and from personal life experiences. It isn’t knowledge but if you like it is my best guess as to how God works in our lives.My best guess is this. God created a world that would ultimately create sentient moral creatures that would have a sense of right and wrong, and with the free will to make moral choices.However, the Bible tells me that in addition there the Holy Spirit of God, that still small voice or God meme that speaks, (not audibly, at least to me), to our hearts and minds and draws us to decisions that are moral and right for this world.So, finally, in answer to that question I’d say OK, that works for me. It is basically trying to put in my basic simple human understanding what is going on and so it is a bit like me reading Brian Greene to understand science. I can maybe get a small understanding of scientific concepts,but that’s about it. As to the technicalities of how God works in this world I’m in about the same position there as well.

I get all that. I realize it makes no sense to you, in the same way that the idea that we have simply evolved as a result of a myriad of mindless chemical and biological processes is just a far fetched to me as my beliefs are to you.

At least my mess makes sense to me. If you run into Vera say hi for me.
Cheers

True, but everybody has an ideology, and more wars can be attributed to nationalism than anything else.If religion had never been invented it would have no bearing on whether God existed or not, and whether or not there is a universal morality that flows from God. I'd also add that in the case of Christianity Jesus is clear that the basic law that we are to follow is based on love of neighbour as spelled out in the Golden Rule. Also in the Sermon on the Mount where we are told that that the peacemakers are blessed. That hasn't stopped evil being done by nations and Christians as people are still people.

I've gone around that with Tangle so if you like you can read what I have posted there.

I agree that morality has evolved over time, but I would see it as a growing understanding of a morality that always has been there.We would all agree that slavery is wrong, and we would all agree that in the past in many cultures slavery was accepted as the norm and not seen as wrong.We agree that it is wrong now but was it wrong then? Was slavery ok in it's time, but wrong now, or has slavery always been wrong?

I agree completely. So then, if they were wrong then how do we know we are right now? If it has always been wrong then there is a morality that exists that isn't simply the result of human evolution. It would have had to exist outside of human thought.Sure, it has evolved over time in our thought processes, but slavery is wrong, has always been wrong and always will be wrong.

deleted. wrong thread

But there always has been a sense that some things are wrong or bad some things are right or good.
Sure those ideas change from one culture to another, but why do we even consider some things good or evil. From what you write you seem to think that slavery in the right context was not necessarily good but that it was ok and not bad at all. Is that correct, or was slavery always wrong. Naziism was the dominant culture in Germany in 1940. Was that good, bad or morally neutral within that culture?The practice in the world at the time of Jesus was to leave unwanted babies, usually girls, in the hills or even in dumps. This way they weren't actually killing them and they might have a chance of survival. Was that good, bad or morally neutral as that was the accepted custom in that time and culture?

Sure we can figure out what works, but we find things in life that we do, not because we can see that it works or can see that it will bring about some particular result, but it is something we "ought" to do just because it is the right thing to do.If someone in front of me drops a 50 dollar bill on the pavement, why is it that, whether we return it or not", is it something that we all, somewhat instinctively, know we "ought" to do?

But that misses the point. Did they have it wrong 2000 years ago. Yes, it was accepted but did that make it ok?

I have no problem with saying it evolved. The question is simply were they wrong 2000 years ago when slavery was the norm?