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Author Topic:   Morality without God is impossible
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8580
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 291 of 306 (874737)
04-08-2020 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by GDR
04-08-2020 2:19 PM


Re: Morality and Empathy
GDR writes:

That's a bit low. I have never said anything that could remotely give you the idea that I would think that.

Feminists and the BAME community would say that what you did there was reveal a sub-conscious prejudice. But hey, I'm cool with it, just sayin' :-)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by GDR, posted 04-08-2020 2:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by GDR, posted 04-08-2020 4:56 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8580
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 293 of 306 (874757)
04-09-2020 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by GDR
04-08-2020 4:56 PM


Re: Morality and Empathy
So where are we now?

I interpreted your original claim to be that we can't know what right and wrong is without there being a god to tell us. You actually said “… if we are the result of blind chance then it is my contention that there is no frame of reference for understanding morality.”

It seems to me that we have agreed that our sense of morality is a naturally evolved trait but your position is that god somehow set this up so that it *would* evolve.

My position on that is pretty much a shrug. As there's no difference between a natural process that wasn't instigated by a god and one that was, it's purely a matter of belief that it is supernatural. I simply say that the argument then is a different one than we're having here - that's the issue of how there's something rather than nothing.

But I still feel that you're fluffing the real time intervention issue. You now seem to want to push the intervention back into what you call memes - cultural influences. That's fine, we all accept that they exist, though science calls them normative social behaviours and they too are perfectly natural.

So I'm really struggling to understand what it is you're thinking/believing about it. We have to make moral decision almost every moment of every day and they're rarely of the running into burning buildings type. Deciding to choose the slightly smaller slice of cake so that you partner can the bigger one is a moral choice, is god intervening there?

(Curiously - as RAZD would say - I see the running into a burning building action as more of a reflex than sacrificing the cake. Less conscious processing involved.)

It seems unlikely to me that you have god directly influencing all moral choices -whispering in our ears with this poetical 'still small voice', but you're settling more on god influencing normative behaviours somehow? Is this correct?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by GDR, posted 04-08-2020 4:56 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by GDR, posted 04-09-2020 2:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8580
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 295 of 306 (874778)
04-09-2020 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by GDR
04-09-2020 2:29 PM


Re: Morality and Empathy
GDR writes:

My best guess is this. God created a world that would ultimately create sentient moral creatures that would have a sense of right and wrong, and with the free will to make moral choices.

I wish you'd stop there. I haven't read the rest yet but I know I'm not going to like it.

However, the Bible tells me that in addition there the Holy Spirit of God, that “still small voice” or God meme that speaks, (not audibly, at least to me), to our hearts and minds and draws us to decisions that are moral and right for this world.

Hohum...

So, finally, in answer to that question I’d say OK, that works for me. It is basically trying to put in my basic simple human understanding what is going on and so it is a bit like me reading Brian Greene to understand science. I can maybe get a small understanding of scientific concepts,but that’s about it. As to the technicalities of how God works in this world I’m in about the same position there as well.

Well that got me no closer I'm afraid.

It seems to me that you're now between a rock and a rock. You seem to accept science's natural explanations but because of some fanciful ancient stories you are forced to belief something supernatural as well. Regardless of it being both unnecessary and unevidenced. I'm afraid that makes no sense to me and it concerns me that such primitive superstitions are still so prevalent.

I find that utterly bizarre.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by GDR, posted 04-09-2020 2:29 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by GDR, posted 04-09-2020 3:44 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8580
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 297 of 306 (874782)
04-09-2020 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by GDR
04-09-2020 3:44 PM


Re: Morality and Empathy
GDR writes:

I realize it makes no sense to you, in the same way that the idea that we have simply evolved as a result of a myriad of mindless chemical and biological processes is just a far fetched to me as my beliefs are to you.

It's really difficult trying to follow your thought processes, you're all over the place; a minute ago you told me that “ God created a world that would ultimately create sentient moral creatures that would have a sense of right and wrong, and with the free will to make moral choices.” which is evolution with a different hat on.

You're a mess mate :-)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by GDR, posted 04-09-2020 3:44 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by GDR, posted 04-10-2020 11:27 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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