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Author Topic:   Continuing the Endless Discussion between GDR and traditional Protestantism
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 52 of 103 (874773)
04-09-2020 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
04-09-2020 12:46 AM


Re: The Rapture isn't going to bed yet
Faith writes:

There's nothing wrong with picturing heaven as "up there" since after all Jesus is depicted as having ascended upward into a cloud when He left to be with the Father, and the angel explained to the disciples standing there with their mouths open that He would return the same way. So He is said to come from above and we who are left alive are said to meet Him in the air.

This is what comes from reading things with a 21st century mindset. Sure it is fine if you want to take as being literally up and literally in a cloud but that isn’t how it would been understood by the 7 churches that the letter was for. Firstly they understood that heaven being up was a metaphor for God’s space so they would say that He ascended.

As far as the cloud is concerned that simply meant the presence of God. All through the OT God is spoken of as being in a cloud. For example in the exodus God led them in the day from a pillar of cloud. Also in the exodus story it tells of God being in a cloud at the top of Mt. Sinai and Moses descending. As Moses descended from a cloud , (sometimes it’s smoke), they talked about Jesus ascending into God’s presence as represented by a cloud.

Faith writes:

Wright sees this as the Second Coming and there are lots of reasons why others conclude it's before the Second Coming. That's an enormous argument and I finally came to believe that it is a special event that removes the Church from the earth while the Day of the LORD plays out on the earth in a seven-year period which is la id out in the Book of Revelation. Heaven is no doubt "another dimension" without any particular space-time orientation, but the earth will still be the earth with its space-time orientation while the Church is in heaven wherever that is. We will be "changed" as the scripture says, the corruptible made incorruptible.

Once again it isn’t about a literal 7 day period. Seven just represents completeness as in the seven days of creation, which wasn’t meant to be taken literally either. There are 7 candles in the menorah.

Faith writes:

There has to be a Day of the Lord. It's been prophesied throughout the Old Testament. And the Church is not present in any of the Book of Revelation between Chapter three and Chapter nineteen when Jesus returns. There are plenty of biblical reasons why we believe what we believe. Wright is imposing too many of his own assumptions on a text that doesn't support them.

I agree that there will be a day when this world is renewed. I haven’t the faintest idea when and whether this happens collectively for all of creation, or whether it happens individually at the end of this life. I don’t know but I tend towards the latter whereas Wright tends towards the first.

Also, in most cases the “Day of the Lord” was not in reference to the end of this world as we now know it, but it was the day that The Jewish people prayed and hoped for, when Yahweh would return and establish an earthly kingdom after defeating Israel’s enemies. It did take on a new understanding for Christians later.

Faith writes:

The remaking of heaven and earth doesn't happen at the Rapture or the Second Coming if you follow the scriptural references. I used to think it did, just as I used to think the Rapture was just our meeting Jesus in the air at His final return to earth. That is more along the lines of Wright's interpretation and it's the interpretation I used to have that I gave up for the Pre Tribulation Rapture. It is clear that the Church is promised by Jesus that we will not have to endure the wrath of God which is coming on the earth, and the Rapture explains that very nicely and it's buttressed by the absence of the Church in most of the Book of Revelation which spells out that final Day of the Lord when His wrath IS poured out on the earth. The Church is not there, we return with Christ when He does finally return. At that point He sets up His kingdom on the earth. It is not yet the NEW heavens and earth, that will occur after the Millennium or thousand-year reign of Christ which begins with the Second Coming, the Church having accompanied Him in our new glorified bodies.

If we just met Him in the air to return with Him to earth immediately there would be no Millennium in which people live normal lives, have children and so on, because glorified bodies can't procreate. I'm not saying I understand all the scripture behind these things, but it hangs together in a way the old idea which is Wright's does not. The War of Armageddon doesn't occur until the end of the Millennium of Christi's reign, when Satan is released and people who reject Christ join him against Christ. The people who live earthly lives during the Millennium are fallen and eventually their fallenness emerges in all out rebellion against God. We in our glorified bodies are saved from fallenness. All this has to happen for the scriptures to reach their fulfillment, otherwise way too much is left out of the prophetic picture. The end of the space-time Creation won't come until the end of the Millennium. That is represented by the New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven, a very strange three-dimensional cube that is nothing like any earthly city but is presented as the Bride of Christ and the place that will be inhabited from then on.
Believe me I don't understand any of that bu t I suspect we are to have a thousand years of more or less normal earthly life but restored to Edenlikeness because of Christ's rule, sort of to acclimate us to the entirely new kind of existence that we'll have at the very end. It isn't going to be suddenly forced on us. That's my own thinking there. It is all very mysterious.

I don’t what to say to all that. You are taking Jewish apocalyptic writings written in a way to be understood nearly 2000 years ago, and reading like it was written in the style we understand today. It wasn’t meant to be taken as you read it.
We have a line in one of our prayers that says, “so complex so simple, so clear so mysterious”. As you say it is all mysterious. The clear and simple part is what matters.

If we focus our Christian faith on this verse where Jesus sums up the whole of the Sermon on the Mount, we don’t need anything more.

Matthew 7:12 writes:

12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.


I suggest that it is fine to do our best to understand everything else, (it is really interesting IMHO),but it isn’t what we hang our hat on. We have had incredible Christian scholars over centuries and none of them agree on everything. However they all agree on Matthew 7:12.

My signature tells us what God wants of us. There is nothing in that or in Matthew 7:12 that tells us that He is concerned that we get our theology right.

Edited by GDR, : typo


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 04-09-2020 12:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 04-09-2020 4:46 PM GDR has taken no action
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 04-09-2020 7:23 PM GDR has replied
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 04-10-2020 1:30 AM GDR has taken no action
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 04-10-2020 10:57 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 57 of 103 (874803)
04-10-2020 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
04-09-2020 7:23 PM


The Rapture isn't Biblical
Faith writes:

What "21st centurity mindset" could you possibly be talking about? The literal reading is what we should expect of the early church, the metaphorizing reading of Wright is the modern mindset which can't stomach a literal reading, that's all.

It isn’t a case of stomaching anything. It is a case of understanding what the biblical author’s meant and what those in that culture, at that , would have understood.

Faith writes:

I know I already answered this but I keep puzzling over how you or Wright could call the literal reading of the Ascension a w21st century mindset. The LITERAL reading mind you. The reading that says Jesus went UP and was received into a CLOUD. Thinking of this as something the disciples actually saw Jesus do, rise UP into the air into a cloud after which He was no longer seen, THAT you call a 21st century mindset? Certainly they would understand that He went into an invisible realm somehow, that is sort of symbolized by the cloud, but the cloud would have been a real cloud that they really saw with their eyes, and Jesus would have literally risen UP into it. Same with the cloud on Mt. Sinai. God spoke from the cloud. a literal cloud the people could see, but it would have been understood that God Himself is invisible and dwelt in an invisible heaven. What they understood is what we understand, but somehow you and Wright want to take away the real visible rising up of Jesus and the real visible cloud in both scenes? Why? The angel said jesus would return in the same way that He went. Why would you expect anything other than His coming down from a cloud as He rose up into a cloud? What is it about this literal reading that you and Wright object to?

That is how you would understand it if you were reading your local paper today. The compiler of Acts was a 1st century Jew reaching out to both Jews and gentiles but from a very Jewish perspective. Let’s break it down starting with the whole issue of cloud.
Exodus 13 writes:

21 By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night.

Exodus 16 writes:

10 While Aaron was speaking to the whole Israelite community, they looked toward the desert, and there was the glory of the LORD appearing in the cloud.

Exodus 19 writes:

9 The LORD said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said.

Exodus 33 writes:

9 As Moses went into the tent, the pillar of cloud would come down and stay at the entrance, while the LORD spoke with Moses.

Exodus 34 writes:

5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD.

Leviticus 16 writes:

2 The LORD said to Moses: “Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place behind the curtain in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die. For I will appear in the cloud over the atonement cover.

Numbers 11 writes:

25 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took some of the power of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders.

Deuteronomy 21 writes:

15 Then the LORD appeared at the tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the tent.

1 Kings 8 writes:

12 Then Solomon said, “The LORD has said that he would dwell in a dark cloud

Hopefully that is enough Faith for you to see that for the Jews being lifted up into a cloud meant simply that He had gone into the presence of God.
As far as them looking up into heaven I simply have to ask what other way do we look even today in worship or prayer but up.
One of the other things that he would be saying is about the divinity of Jesus. His Jewish audience would understand this in light of Daniel 7.
Daniel 7 writes:

13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

He was saying that Jesus, the “Son of Man” was being presented to God, The Ancient of Days” and being given dominion over the eternal Kingdom.

Then you mention about the idea that Jesus would return in the way He departed. They were saying that Jesus had departed into God’s heavenly, invisible dimension. The point being which ties into what we see in Ephesians 1

Ephesians 1 writes:

9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

The return of Jesus will be when God brings about the renewal of all things with the union of His dimension and our own. That is what the Bible actually means when it talks about Jesus returning.

Faith writes:

When it comes to the Rapture, which would be a Christian's last moment on earth forever, in our earthly form, we are certainly to be expecting the event so we'll be ready for it. Ignoring it is not being ready for it. We are TOLD not to be caught by surprise, as by a "thief in the night." The event wikll be like that to all those who don't believe and aren't expecting it, but we are told to be ready.

This again is a total misreading. This is Jesus’ political message for the time. It is His anti-revolutionary message. He also tells them to head for the hills in order to try and stay safe when this happens. From the point of view of your scenario what would be the point of that? It does make sense though that if you have the Roman army responding to rebellion and marching into the cities, that the hills would be your only place of refuge.
This is again what comes from a 21st century mindset. You weren’t the target audience. It has to be understood from the point of view of a 1st century Jew.
I’ll try and get to more of your posts later.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 04-09-2020 7:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 04-10-2020 2:09 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 59 of 103 (874805)
04-10-2020 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
04-10-2020 10:57 AM


Day of the Lord in context of the times
Faith writes:

There is no biblical reference to a Day of the Lord by that description. The Day of the Lord throughout scripture, especially through the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ekekiel, Joel and even in the New Testament in a few places, is a time when the wrath of God is poured out on the earth. If you search any searchable Bible on it you'll get these various descriptions of great destruction. Here is one: (and you quoted Isaiah 13:9

quote:
9 See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.
This is what comes from cherry picking verses. Look at it in the context of the verses in verses 1-13.
Isaiah 13 writes:

1 A prophecy against Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw: 2 Raise a banner on a bare hilltop, shout to them; beckon to them to enter the gates of the nobles. 3 I have commanded those I prepared for battle; I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath— those who rejoice in my triumph. 4 Listen, a noise on the mountains, like that of a great multitude! Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms, like nations massing together! The LORD Almighty is mustering an army for war. 5 They come from faraway lands, from the ends of the heavens— the LORD and the weapons of his wrath— to destroy the whole country. 6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. 7 Because of this, all hands will go limp, every heart will melt with fear. 8 Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame. 9 See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. 10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. 11 I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless. 12 I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger.


The very verse you quoted is about the defeat of the Babylonian army. The sun and moon being darkened is simply their way of talking about great military or political upheaval. We can see it again in Ezekial.
Ezekial 13 5 You have not gone up to the breaches in the wall to repair it for the people of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the LORD.

When Jesus uses this kind of language He is talking about what will happen if they continue to respond to the cry for militant nationalism. Jesus is saying that if you start another revolution the Romans will do what they always do. They will destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. His message is one of peace, loving the Romans and changing hearts. He is essentially saying that it wasn’t the Romans who were the real enemy, it was evil itself.
They didn’t heed His warning, and we can in hindsight look back and see what happened in the war in 70AD.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 04-10-2020 10:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 04-10-2020 3:25 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 60 of 103 (874806)
04-10-2020 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
04-10-2020 2:09 PM


Re: The Rapture isn't Biblical
Faith writes:

Just one thing for starters: The author of Acts was not a Jew and his audience,were mostly Gentiles.. The author was Luke, a Gentile physician. He was not writing from a Jewish perspective at all.

We don't actually know that. He may well have been a gentile Christian , but modern scholarship has come to believe he was a Hellenistic Jew.

In either case He travelled with Paul, was writing from a Jewish perspective consistent with Paul's' teaching, with both a Jewish and gentile audience in mind.

Faith writes:

As far as the expectation that clouds meant heaven, that's fine, but you can't get rid of the cloud as a real cloud just because it signifies going into heaven.

OK, but that isn't Biblical. It only matters to you because you are trying to make it say something that was never intended.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 04-10-2020 2:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 04-10-2020 3:01 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 63 of 103 (874812)
04-10-2020 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
04-10-2020 3:01 PM


Re: The Rapture isn't Biblical
Faith writes:

How can it say something that was never intended when it clearly says what it clearly says? There's some kind of crazy convoluted thinking going on here that makes no sense. It describes a cloud, that means a cloud was actually seen. It may MEAN heaven but it's still a visible CLOUD. How do YOU know something ELSE was "intended." That makes no sense.

Again you are reading it with a 21st century mind set. If I write in a book that it was raining cats and dogs you would know that I meant that it was a very heavy rainfall. Maybe 2000 years from now somebody might read that I think that a tornado had picked up our pets and started dropping them on us. That is exactly what you're doing. You are reading something in into it that was never intended.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 04-10-2020 3:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 04-10-2020 8:45 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 64 of 103 (874813)
04-10-2020 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
04-10-2020 3:25 PM


Re: Day of the Lord in context of the times
Faith writes:

You don't understand how prophecy works. The prophecy of the future Day of the Lord is expressed in the context of the destruction of Babylon in that passage but it's still a prophecy of the much future event.

No it isn't. In that passage it is all about the destruction of Babylon. The Gospels don't use that term but references it in other ways to talk about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans.

Faith writes:

And if you search for Day of the Lord you will find many references that point to that much future event even when couched in a present context, which changes from prophet to prophet.

The early Christians understood that the Israel hope for the day of the Lord had taken place in Jesus although not in the way that had been anticipated. Jesus had come and faced the ultimate great evil which is death, and through the cross and resurrection death was defeated. It wasn't the ultimate end of life.

After that however the early Christians co-opted the term and started using it to refer to the time when God would renew all things, with Jesus' return being part of that, what ever that was going to look like.

Edited by GDR, : typo


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 04-10-2020 3:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 04-10-2020 8:38 PM GDR has taken no action

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 68 of 103 (874888)
04-11-2020 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
04-10-2020 8:45 PM


Re: The Rapture isn't Biblical
Faith writes:

There are at least a dozen uses of "Day of the Lord" in scripture and they ALL refer to the day of great wrath from God, ALL OF THEM. There is no other meaning in the OLD Testament than the one I'm talking about, it's the Day of Wrath and never meant anything else. I don't know where you are getting your odd outlier version of the term but it has nothing to do with this subject. And yes you are wrong about prophecy, it often occurs within a contemporary context but also reaches into the future. That is STANDARD theology GDR. And again there are a LOT of uses of that term, it isn't as if we're stuck with the Babylonian context. ALL OF THEM describe a great day of destruction, and they do fit with the Great Tribulation Jesus talks about.

It is hard to reply to this as I'm not at all sure what it is that you are saying. The quote that you used was clearly about the Israeli prayer for the return of Yahweh to lead them in defeat of the Babylonians. They were in exile and that was their hope. It is your standard theology and presumably that of the church you belong to. Actually there is no such thing as standard theology anyway. It is your desire to turn the Bible into something like yesterday’s newspaper and then be able to give absolute answers to all questions. It freezes your mind to anything that God might actually have for you when you read your Bible.

Your Christian belief in many ways seems to be so much like the ancient Jews. They desperately wanted Yahweh to destroy their enemies. You seem to be so often fixated on a wrathful god, very unlike the god as embodied by Jesus in the Gospels. I don't actually believe you are like this, but your postings make it sound like you are craving vengeance on those who don't subscribe to your fundamentalist beliefs.

Faith writes:

Oh for pete's sake GDR. "Raining cats and dogs" is obviously metaphorical. Sheesh. "Up" and "Clouds" are simple understandable descriptive terms, not metaphors. Sheesh.

Firstly "Raining cats and dogs" isn’t a metaphor it is an idiom. You are reading the Bible like a 21st century newspaper account of the event. The important thing is to understand what they literally meant, not what they literally said.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 04-10-2020 8:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 04-11-2020 5:45 PM GDR has replied
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 04-11-2020 5:59 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 71 of 103 (874907)
04-11-2020 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
04-11-2020 5:45 PM


Re: The Rapture isn't Biblical
Faith writes:

Idiom, fine, who cares, the point is that we all know it's not literal. BUT CLOUDS ARE, "UP" IS.

Yes if that is what they meant but it clearly isn't. Have you ever heard the expression that someone head is the clouds. It isn'[t a literal cloud and you understand that it because it's a current idiom.

You are trying to understand it in a simplistic factual sense that that wasn't intended, but meant something far more profound.

I've shown you numerous contradictions in the Bible and your only explanation is that are no contradictions. You are going to believe what you are going to believe.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 04-11-2020 5:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 04-11-2020 7:01 PM GDR has taken no action

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 72 of 103 (874912)
04-11-2020 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
04-11-2020 5:59 PM


Re: The Rapture isn't Biblical
Faith writes:

Maybe it's because your own theology is derived so much from your own feelings and preferences you think that's how I derive mine too but I don't, I'm writing what I believe is the standarad traditional theology. Nothing to do with me personally. I don't "crave" anything in the theology, I simply present what I understand to be true.

That is more than fair, but please accept that I too am posting what I believe to be true. Also I wasn't saying that you crave anything in your theology, but what I am saying is that sometimes your posts come across that way.

I know you believe that you are portraying standard orthodox, theology, but to be honest Faith pretty much every Christian believes that their specific beliefs are orthodox. Frankly I believe that my views are pretty orthodox and in my Anglican circles I'm pretty much down the middle on what would generally be considered orthodoxy.

Faith writes:

And if you're talking about my emphasis here on the Day of the Lord that's because we are talking about the Rapture, or I thought we were, and we got stuck on the part that follows the Rapture, known as the Great Tribulation, which is understood in standard theology to be the fulfillment of the Day oif the LORD which is a Day of Wrath, found throughout scripture. You have some other interpretation of that term and that's requiring me to keep the standard meaning on the table. Nothing to do with my preferences, all to do with trying to keep the meaning of the topic alive.


I understand why you see it that way. The problem is that it is my belief that your detailed concept of rapture is not what is meant by what is in the Bible. The resurrection of Jesus is a foretaste, (with Jesus as the new Adam), of what is ultimately to come. Ultimately God will do for all of His creation what He did for Jesus in the renewal of that creation. As Ephesians 1 puts it:
quote:
9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

Our job as Christians, and for all humanity, is to follow the so called Golden Rule in Matthew 7:12 or in the quote from Micah that I use as a signature.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 04-11-2020 5:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 04-11-2020 7:04 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 75 of 103 (874916)
04-11-2020 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
04-11-2020 7:04 PM


Re: The Rapture isn't Biblical
Faith writes:

I'm going to have to give this up to save my sanity.

Wouldn't want that to happen.

Faith writes:

Tyhere is nothing in anything I've said that says anything else. Good grief man. I'm following up on how things are to play out historically, you are just talking about the end result.

Guess I wasn't clear on the point. What God did in response to the evil of mankind in crucifying Jesus was the loving act of resurrection. As you agree that this was a foretaste of what is to come then we should look forward to the loving act, not a wrathful act, that God will ultimately do for all creation as it says in Ephesians 1.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 04-11-2020 7:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 04-11-2020 7:37 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 77 of 103 (874921)
04-11-2020 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
04-11-2020 7:37 PM


Re: The Rapture is for the Church, the Day of the Lord is for unbelievers
Faith writes:

Believers do not "look forward to a wrathful act," you really have to get this sorted out better. Believers look forward to the Rapture to be with Jesus in heaven and be permanently changed to fit into the Kingdom of God. Where the Day of the Lord comes in has to do with the playing out of the whole historical thrust of scripture from beginning to end. There IS a history that IS playing out that is outlined in the Bible. The "end times" of course refers to how this history comes to an end and that is what I am doing with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The Rapture comes first and I could stop there because that's what I personally have to look forward to if I am alive at that point.

But I actually care about the people who won't go in the Rapture and what is coming on the earth after the Raptur e is the Wrath of God being poured out. This is what the Day of the Lord refers to, it is what the Great Tribulation refers to, it is what is described here and there in the prophets of the OT and in great detail in the middle part of the Book of Revelation.

If I belong to Jesus I'm not going to have to live through all this, but my unsaved family and friends will have to if it comes in our lifetime. It may not come until well past our lifetime, who knows, but some people are going to have to live through it whenever it occurs. This applies to them.

I get all that. I’m not saying that you want a wrathful god and you want everyone saved. However, it seems that you believe in a wrathful God, and if we are to look to Jesus to understand the Father then it is clear He isn’t a wrathful god.

Faith writes:

The main group to be left on the earth after the Church is raptured, besides all atheists, will be the Jews, and the Day of the Lord is the last seven years of God's dealings with Israel as described in the Old testament. Some Christians think Israel is out of the picture completely, that their role ended when Jesus came. I more or less accepted that for a long time but then I got into the thinking behind the Pre-Tribulation rapture and finally accepted that after the Church is gone what happens is that God resumes His dealings with Israel pretty much in Old Testament terms. During the Day of the Lord millions of people will be saved, and that includes a third of the Jews and millions of others from every people group on earth. This is all going to go on during the periodic and progressive destructions of the planet and the political domination of the Antichrist and the manifestation of demon hordes. I hate to think of ANYONE going through all that and those who hold this point of view want to be sure people have some idea of what is coming so they can deal with it better.

First off I should remind you that Jesus was a Jew. Also, you might want to be careful as Paul says this in Corinthians 4

quote:
5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
I suggest as Christians we should stop worrying about who is good to go and who isn’t. Jesus’ teaching is also clear, and consistent with what Paul is saying in that verse from Corinthians. It isn’t about our theology but about our heart.

I would also like to look at this from another POV. You, correct me if I’m wrong, are trying to hold to the beliefs of the reformists of 500 years ago. (There were divergent views amongst that group even then.)

The reason for the reformation had some but not much to do with theological differences with the church, but about actual church practices and particularly the pernicious practice of selling indulgences. The church had also become a route to political power and so the church had become a route to wealth and power. (A lot like the Temple in Jesus’ day.) It was a very unhealthy situation and led to much abuse and very little in the way of any actual Christian practices being followed.

Also, up to that time the Bible was not available to the masses and was only available as the “Vulgate” which was in Latin, which only the highly educated men, primarily the priests could read at all. The priests considered themselves the only ones qualified to interpret the Scriptures, and were more than happy with the status quo.

Around that time there were those who started translating the Scriptures into the local languages. Also the printing press was now readily available and these local translations began to be distributed. The church fought against this to the extent that some of those involved were executed or imprisoned.
Now for the first time, in a long time, there were people like Luther and Calvin who were outside the church who could read, digest and interpret the Scriptures for the masses. They made huge strides in some areas, particularly in the understanding of God’s grace. However, they had very little to go on, aside from the Scriptures themselves, as they worked out their theology,.

Let’s fast forward 500 years to today. During that time there have been numerous other scholars and theologians giving us new insights into the Scriptures. However, starting about 60 years ago some scholars started to take an interest in studying the Scriptures in their historical context and getting away from the idea of reading the Scriptures as if they were written for the current time and culture.

There was a good reason for this having started then. The world had gotten through the turmoil of the first half of the 20th century and various early historical documents were now much more readily available. The research of the Dead Sea Scrolls that were found in the 40’s were extremely helpful. These scholars were now able to vastly increase their ability to accurately translate all of these documents including the Scriptures, as well as gaining considerable knowledge of the culture, their customs and their beliefs.

In more recent years the internet has made these early documents even more readily available, and have made it possible for scholars to collaborate and pool their understandings. With all of this we have had since the reformation a huge pool of scholarship to help us grasp the Christian message as Jesus understood it, taught it, died and was resurrected for it. Thank heavens for the reformation, but I suggest that there is a lot more to be gleaned from the Scriptures than was understood at that time.
It is similar in some ways the study of science. Up until the early part of the 20th century orthodox science believed in the deterministic universe of Newtonian physics. Then all of a sudden along comes the science of Einstein with his work on relativity and then special relativity. Scientific orthodoxy suddenly looked very different. Then with the science of QM scientific orthodoxy looked different again.

I suggest that as new insights and scholarship come along we should change our Christian orthodoxy in regard to the Scriptures, reinforcing some belief and modifying others. I think that as Christians we shouldn’t lock ourselves away from any new insights into our theology and particularly we shouldn’t put on blinkers and rigidly follow a 500 year old understanding of the Scriptures that involved a relatively few theologians without much to go on.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 04-11-2020 7:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 04-11-2020 9:26 PM GDR has replied
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 2:34 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 79 of 103 (874924)
04-11-2020 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
04-11-2020 9:26 PM


Re: The Rapture is for the Church, the Day of the Lord is for unbelievers
Faith writes:

Sure he is. He's the same God as the God of the Old Testament. What could drive me bonkers dealing with you is that you just believe what you want to believe and blithely toss away what you don't like. so of course you must toss away the following:

Anyone can pull things out of the overall context of the Bible to confirm whatever it is that they are looking to confirm. The writers of the non-Gospel books of the NT were the first theologians and their theological beliefs aren't always consistent with each other. Even the verse I quote and the one you quoted had Paul disagreeing with himself. We have to keep in mind that Paul was writing to very different churches and dealing with different issues.

Faith writes:

You are quite wrong about the Reformation teaching, however, it was a very strongly theological rejection of the Roman Church for its doctrine of salvation by works in particular. The Roman Church certainly knew what it was being criticized for. All you have to do is read the Council of Trent's curses on the Protestant doctrines concerning salvation. The sale of indulgences was simply the original offense that drew Luther's attention to the corruptions of the Church. After studying the Bible he came to realize that the corruption was far deeper than any specific offense, the Roman Church was not a Christian body at all and the Pope was the Antichrist.

So we just throw out 500 years of Christian acholarship.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 04-11-2020 9:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 04-11-2020 9:58 PM GDR has taken no action

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 82 of 103 (874940)
04-12-2020 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
04-12-2020 2:34 AM


Re: The Rapture is for the Church, the Day of the Lord is for unbelievers
Faith writes:

You don't say exactly what you think all the newly discovered documents contributed to theology. My impression has been they contributed nothing new. If they contributed YOUR theology then they undid the entire previous two thousand years. That's not what I'd call progress in scholarship.


The point was that it gave them increased knowledge of the language and culture making for better translation and understanding what was meant in the context of the culture and time.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 2:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 2:55 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 84 of 103 (874971)
04-12-2020 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
04-12-2020 2:55 AM


Re: The Rapture is for the Church, the Day of the Lord is for unbelievers
Yes, at the time of the reformation there was a very large increase in the understanding of the Scriptures as they were now available to so many more individuals. However that doesn't mean that subsequent generations couldn't bring new light to them, nor should we believe that future generations won't advance our understanding of the Scriptures, so that we can better understand God's call on our lives.

I truly hope you have a very Happy Easter even in this difficult time.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 2:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 1:31 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 86 of 103 (875003)
04-12-2020 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
04-12-2020 1:31 PM


There is still more to learn
Double post

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 1:31 PM Faith has taken no action

  
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