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Author Topic:   "Best" evidence for evolution.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 572 of 830 (871374)
02-01-2020 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by Faith
02-01-2020 2:33 PM


Re: Logic fails, proves nothing
Faith writes:
The Peppered Moth is not the Standard for all species. Sheesh.
Correct, there are several mechanisms for evolution. But the thing that you deny - mutation - is proven to have happened. And the second mechanism of evolution - natural selection - was proven to be the cause of the fixation of the mutation in the population.
What's more it did it twice. Sheesh indeed.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by Faith, posted 02-01-2020 2:33 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 593 of 830 (873668)
03-18-2020 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 590 by caffeine
03-18-2020 1:52 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution -
Caffeine writes:
Species doesn't have a definition, and it bothers me that people keep pretending it does. Species is a vague and nebulous concept, and while it certainly predates evolution, the definition of a group of organisms capable of interbreeding doesn't - this was only really formally defined in the 20th century.
I'm really pleased you posted that. I was taught many years ago that species is a biological concept that real organisms find amusing. But we have to draw some lines somewhere just for tidiness sake. Even if we rub them out later.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by caffeine, posted 03-18-2020 1:52 PM caffeine has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 597 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 3:18 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 605 of 830 (873705)
03-18-2020 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by Faith
03-18-2020 3:18 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution -
Faith writes:
Oh nonsense. It's not all that hard to place organisms into their rightful morphological camps,
You do make me laugh. When have you ever tried to do that Faith?
which I think should be called Species.
I'm sure Nature will be interested in your considered paper.
The difficulties are fairly rare really.
You haven't the faintest idea. You're the gal that thinks trilobites are all one species.
This idea that the species all blur together is an artifact of the ToE.
It's got fuck all to do with the ToE. it existed before the ToE.
Without that interference it is not all that hard to classify creatures.
That would be why biologists fight over it daily I guess.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 3:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 5:20 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 607 of 830 (873712)
03-18-2020 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 606 by Faith
03-18-2020 5:20 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:
I did ponder the Linnaean system fairly recently.
You crease me up, you really do. Bigly. Utterly clueless.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 5:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 5:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 610 of 830 (873715)
03-18-2020 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 608 by Faith
03-18-2020 5:55 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:
You said I hadn't given any thought to it, and I answered that have.
You haven't the first idea what is actually involved in classifying organisms. You have no training whatsoever in the subject and think that you can just pontificate from your armchair without so much as touching a life form let alone learning its taxonomy. Real scientists can spend their entire lives studying a small number of taxa, if only they knew that you could do it simply by decree.
It must be a huge shock to you that you are also not managing to change our entire understanding of geology - your ego, ignorance and delusion is astonishing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 5:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 611 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 7:44 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 615 of 830 (873740)
03-19-2020 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 611 by Faith
03-18-2020 7:44 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:
Yeah I guess it does look easier to me than they claim.
It's certainly easier to ignore all the obvious differences between, for example, an albatross a kiwi and a puffin and just call them birds. 'Oh look there's a bird!' At least everyone would be right.
It's infantile. Quite literally.
When my boy was small he called all insects bees. But even he noticed that spiders were different so he called them spider-bees. In his own taxonomy that made sense but it was a category error.
And when he saw a shrimp in a fish tank and called it a fish-bee because it looked like it was flying he called it a fish-bee. An even bigger taxonomical error.
Real scientists don't just make shit up like that, they study it in intricate detail to prevent those kind of silly mistakes.
You need to grow up and understand that just because YOU can look at a picture and make shit up in your head, by doing it you make yourself look really stupid. When my kid did it, it was cute, when a grown up does it, it's moronic.
Bird?
Bird?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 7:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by AZPaul3, posted 03-19-2020 9:45 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 617 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 9:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 618 of 830 (873765)
03-19-2020 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by Faith
03-19-2020 9:55 AM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:
Neither of your examples is a bird. Do I get an A?
Ok, now tell me how you know they're not birds

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 9:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 10:43 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 620 of 830 (873781)
03-19-2020 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 619 by Faith
03-19-2020 10:43 AM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:
They don't have the morphology of birds, didn't I say that's the criterion? They don't have the shape, the head, the beak, the feathers, the kind of wings etc etc etc. I already discussed birds somewhere.
Right so you're developing a taxonomy based on morphology which is how the Victorians did it and it's pretty much still intact - DNA proving much of it correct, but quite a lot not and resolving some arcane arguments between taxonomists that had run for generations.
So what's your problem with them carrying on to the species level - identifying groups based on morphological differences? That's all it is, noticing that Ostriches are different to Penguins but that they have a key similarity that make them birds - feathers. No other animal group has feathers.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 10:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 3:34 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 625 of 830 (873801)
03-19-2020 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 621 by Faith
03-19-2020 3:34 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:
I wouldn't have a problem with the basic method.
I can hear the world of biology breathe a collective sigh of relief.
except I discovered on the Linnaean chart a couple of categories I thought were wrong,
Well fuck me, did you alert the Royal Society?
And of course as a Creationist I don't put the creatures in Families above the Species, or I would make the Family the equivalent of the Species, but worse than that Linnaeus puts creatures in Families that are entirely different Kinds in my thinking from the Species he arranges beneath the Family. Something like that. The point is that I don't object to the basic idea but I do object to some of the specifics I found on his chart.
All irrelevant.
It would be a big project but some time I could try to go through the whole Linnean chart to compare it with how I understand the Kinds.
Yeh right. 'Big project' doesn't begin describe it. Currently we reckon there are about 8.7m species and thousands of scientists have been working on it for 200 years. But hey, you could make a start on beetles there's only third of a million of them.
There would certainly be some creatures I'm not familiar with
Ha ha

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 3:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 627 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 4:21 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 630 of 830 (873809)
03-19-2020 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 627 by Faith
03-19-2020 4:21 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:
I'm only interested in the Aves at the moment, what's your problem?
I guess my problem is trying to cope with your extreme ignorance combined with your extreme delusion. It's remarkably similar to Trump in its narcissism. I just can't work out how you got so sure of yourself without actually having the first clue.
I really wish you actually attempt some real study, you might develop a bit of humility and actually learn something. But we both know that you won't. Will you? You never do.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 4:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 5:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 633 of 830 (873814)
03-19-2020 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Faith
03-19-2020 5:19 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:
Arrogant narcissism seems to be defined these days as disagreeing with the establishment, in my case the ToE and the Old Earth, in Ttump's case the Waashington political Swamp.
Well here comes another prophesy, you will never do anything about your restatement of biology's taxonomy but you will keep on blathering about it as though you had.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 5:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 5:38 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 635 of 830 (873817)
03-19-2020 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 634 by Faith
03-19-2020 5:38 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:
I don't know if I'll ever "do anything about" anything I think.
I do. You think that just thinking something is the same as proving it.
If I run across the chart I saw it may prompt me to think some more.
No you won't, you'll just imagine that you have.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 5:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 6:03 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 637 of 830 (873823)
03-19-2020 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by Faith
03-19-2020 6:03 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:
In some cases I do think describing the thought serves as an argument. If it doesn't persuade I'm happy to have had the thought for my own purposes.
I suppose it saves all the hard work of actually showing that something is right or wrong. Any idiot can have 'a thought'.
Do let us know when you've actually done something.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 6:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 679 of 830 (874950)
04-12-2020 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 675 by Faith
04-12-2020 4:08 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Faith writes:
The idea is to identify as many recognizable points of similarity between the structures as defining the Kind into which they fit.
Thousands of biologists over hundreds of years have been doing exactly that. If you do it yourself, you'll arrive at the same result. It'll take you a few hundreds of thousands of woman hours. To do just some of it.
I haven't been working on this lately but the idea is to find as many such points of morphological identity as I can.
I have another prophesy for you and I have a 100% success rate so far as you know.
You won't do any of this. I'm almost certain that you will never even start.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 675 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 4:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 680 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 5:23 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 685 of 830 (874956)
04-12-2020 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 680 by Faith
04-12-2020 5:23 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Faith writes:
No, they saw a lot of it differently.
Yes, because if you classify organisms by form, you'll get the same answer that they do. You have to because you're looking at the same things and putting them into the same boxes.
I group wolves, coyotes, foxes and forget the other one all in one Kind with dogs.
Well you can do that if you like, biologists do exactly the same; they just do it in detail and give the groups different names. In your case 'kind' would be Family Canidae
Ditto every other group.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 680 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 5:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 687 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 2:16 PM Tangle has replied

  
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