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Author Topic:   "Best" evidence for evolution.
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 683 of 830 (874954)
04-12-2020 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 682 by Faith
04-12-2020 5:48 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
Any higher grouping is going to bring together groups that do not share all the same points among themselves.
Which applies to all but the lowest level groupings. So it seems that you should be going for species or even subspecies.
quote:
I want to identify ONLY those who share THOSE points with each other.
The question is how you choose THOSE points rather than another set that gives a different grouping. Why subdivide the mammals and not the birds - for one example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 682 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 5:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 689 of 830 (874975)
04-12-2020 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 687 by Faith
04-12-2020 2:16 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
I can't make out your chart very well but I'd guess that I'd make Canidae my Species or Kind. Everything above that is irrelevant for my purposes. I'm looking for groups that are morphologically identifiable by an unvarying list of features, and genetically related.
That would be all of them. Any one of them would do.
quote:
Carnivora and Mammal certainly don't help with the kind of classification I want to do since there is no possible genetic relationship and no morphological identity that defines them.
But that is how those groups are identified. The morphological features in common define the groups. And genetic analysis confirms that. Surely you’ve heard of the twin nested hierarchies ? THAT is what we’re talking about, one defined by morphology, another by genetics and they match.
And that is why you are hopelessly wrong. You can take back your claim to have read Linnaeus since you’ve clearly missed the central point. And your claims about the genetics are simply assumptions, too.
So all we have is your decrees against science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 687 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 2:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 691 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 2:36 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 690 of 830 (874976)
04-12-2020 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 688 by Faith
04-12-2020 2:26 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
I think the Fossil Record is just the collection of living things that died in the Flood and got buried in separate sedimentary strata.
An idea which is simply the product of your dogmatic belief in a mythical Flood.
quote:
Perfectly mechanical sorting event.
That is obviously impossible. The sorting would have to be based on physical properties - and it obviously isn’t.
quote:
The "record" is an illusion
So is it a record of the Flood or just anillusion? (and how can it be an illusion? The existence of the fossils and the locations of their discovery are objective fact).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 688 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 2:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 702 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 3:59 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 692 of 830 (874978)
04-12-2020 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 691 by Faith
04-12-2020 2:36 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
The features shared by all Mammals and Carnivora are not identical, they are similar, they may have the same function, but morphologically they are different.
Really? Perhaps you can explain what you mean and tell me why you think that the features shared by canids are all identical and not morphologically different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 691 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 2:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 693 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 2:45 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 694 of 830 (874980)
04-12-2020 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 693 by Faith
04-12-2020 2:45 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
The paw of all Canidae is identical as I am using the term
Which is meaningless unless you define the term.
quote:
Neither of these features will be found in any other group.
Which does not mean that the features used to define the broader groups are not identical as you use the term. Whatever that means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 693 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 2:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 695 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 3:06 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 696 of 830 (874982)
04-12-2020 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 695 by Faith
04-12-2020 3:06 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
That's OK, I know what I mean, it's just a matter of getting the definition precise so even you might eventually know what I mean.
The sensible way would be to compare examples. But since we already know that you use inconsistent criteria to support pre-determine conclusions the suspicion that you will do so again is fully justified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 3:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 697 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 3:14 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 698 of 830 (874984)
04-12-2020 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by Faith
04-12-2020 3:14 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Well let us consider your own example of the bird’s wing. It is certainly not true that all bird’s wings are identical. There is considerable difference in size and shape and aerodynamics. (For instance I find it very easy to identify starlings in flight since their wing shape is quite distinctive compared to the other common birds around here).
So obviously you do not mean that bird’s wings are morphologically identical. But then how can you hope to rule out the features defining larger groups - when you were busy denying that those features even existed earlier today? Obviously you never considered it before.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 3:14 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 700 of 830 (874986)
04-12-2020 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by Faith
04-12-2020 3:14 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
ABE: You don't care about being fair, you don't care to try to understand what I'm getting at, all you want to do is find some way, any way will do, to debunk anything I'm saying. Anything
Unlike you I do care about fairness, I do try to understand what you are getting at and I do care about getting it right, rather than finding some excuse.
And that is exactly what you hate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 3:14 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 703 of 830 (874989)
04-12-2020 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 702 by Faith
04-12-2020 3:59 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
Mechanical sorting by a huge volume of water of the sedimentary strata containing dead creatures is a lot more possible than the accumulation of such sedimentary strata over hundreds of millions of years which just happen to become the graveyard of a very specific set of dead creatures that just happened to fall into exactly the right conditions for fossilization though that is highly improbable and a very rare occurrence even in the best of circumstances.
Mechanical sorting cannot produce the observed order. And let us not forget that trace fossils - such as dinosaur footprints - are consistent with the order of the remains.
There is no improbability in the accumulation of sedimentary strata over long periods of time. Sedimentation is an observed process.
Naturally the dead creatures in the sediment will be those that were alive around the time when the sediment was deposited. This explains the variety of fossils found in each period far better than any mechanical sorting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 702 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 3:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 704 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 4:13 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 705 of 830 (874991)
04-12-2020 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 704 by Faith
04-12-2020 4:13 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
You know nothing about what's possible with mechanical sorting
Wrong. Not that it takes much to see that it isn’t possible, as thoroughly discussed in previous threads.
quote:
And I've already explained all that about trace fossils.
You have explained how you think they occurred but not why they fit into the ordering. Obviously they should not if the order was due to mechanical sorting.
quote:
And no sedimentation of the kind we see in the strata are NOT observed today.
That’s your opinion. It’s not an opinion shared by people who have seriously studied the matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 704 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 4:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 707 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 4:44 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 708 of 830 (874994)
04-12-2020 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 707 by Faith
04-12-2020 4:44 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
Yes I've explained how the trace fossils fit into the "order."
No, you haven’t. How could they if the order was produced by mechanical sorting?
quote:
And those who "seriously study" sedimentation are NOT seeing anything that resembles the strata.
Oh, they certainly do. Or - to point out an obvious example - are you going to tell me that sand dunes don’t exist ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 707 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 4:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 709 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 9:38 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 711 of 830 (875012)
04-13-2020 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 709 by Faith
04-12-2020 9:38 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
Footprints occur on the surface of rocks that were then coverd by sediment that killed the animal that made the footprints.
So the trace fossils reflect life living at the time. Why would that fit with an order produced by mechanical sorting? That’s the question you are supposed to be addressing.
For the rest I need only point out that it is irrelevant to the question. (It has, of course, already been answered)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 9:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 712 by Faith, posted 04-13-2020 12:43 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 714 of 830 (875015)
04-13-2020 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 712 by Faith
04-13-2020 12:43 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
The footprints were made by animals running from the next wave of the Flood that overtook and buried them.
In other words you have no explanation of why they fit the order. As I stated in Message 705 you only explain how you think they occurred. Not why they fit into the order - which you say was produced by mechanical sorting.
Why not just admit I as right all along? Rather than trying to argue with me and proving that I was right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by Faith, posted 04-13-2020 12:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 715 by Faith, posted 04-13-2020 12:58 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 716 of 830 (875017)
04-13-2020 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 715 by Faith
04-13-2020 12:58 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
Of course I can't explain the order.
?
Yet in Message 707 you claimed you had explained the order.
Yes I've explained how the trace fossils fit into the "order."
And
If I’m obviously correct, why deny it and then try to bluff with an explanation that doesn’t explain the matter under discussion? Twice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 715 by Faith, posted 04-13-2020 12:58 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 717 by Faith, posted 04-13-2020 1:25 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 718 of 830 (875019)
04-13-2020 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 717 by Faith
04-13-2020 1:25 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
No, what I thought I said was that I could explain how the TRACE FOSSILE fit into the order
Which is what we’ve been talking about all along. If you want to change the subject please make it more obvious.
Nevertheless by failing - twice - to offer an explanation that actually addresses the issue you have demonstrated that you cannot explain why the trace fossils fit into the order.
Yet, the conventional explanation explains that, as well as better explaining the order.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 717 by Faith, posted 04-13-2020 1:25 AM Faith has not replied

  
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