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Author Topic:   Continuing the Endless Discussion between GDR and traditional Protestantism
GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 91 of 103 (875075)
04-13-2020 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
04-13-2020 4:06 PM


Re: There is still more to learn
Faith writes:

Yes, that's Jesus' famous prophcy of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, The cause of it seems unimportant. The Roman army coming in to quell the Jewish uprising? From God's perspective the destruction of the temple is judgment since Jesus' death is the final sacrifice which the Jews do not recognize, the sacrifice that ended all the sacrifices in the temple. The worldly cause of it seems truly irrelevant. We can say it's God's judgment though.

Well OK. But it is judgement from the POV that when nations do stupid things like Israel did in 66 AD things don't go well. Jesus was warning them against that.

Faith writes:

You lose me completely with your emphasis on the earthly causes of the sufferings to come, even reducing the Olivet discourse to a mere teaching against revolution. It's always understood to point to signs by which we can recognize when He is to come back to earth in His Second Coming. But all that is eliminated in your thinking.

I don't recognize it because it isn't there.

If it were about end times and an action by God then why would Jesus say that they should escape Judea and head into the hills to hide. Is He saying that God wouldn't find them there? Why would it matter that it was winter, or that women were pregnant. Why would you be handed over and flogged. I could go on. These things would really matter if they were under siege by the Romans, but hardly if is about Jesus' return.

Faith writes:

You show that Jesus refers back to the Old Testament, such as Daniel for the description of the Son of Man coming in the clouds but you reduce that to a mind-numbingly mundane statement that all it means is that He is the Messiah instead of pointing to His return on the clouds. They still have to experience His crucifixion which is going to panic them, but then they'll see Him alive in His glorified body, and then watch Him be carried up into a cloud. Which you want to turn into something other than an actual cloud.

It is anything but mundane. It isn't about being confirmed as the messiah it is about being enthroned as part of the godhead and given dominion over all nations.

If we take it as an actual cloud then it is meaningless, but when we understand it as Mark intended, that Jesus' resurrected body left to be in the presence of God it has incredible meaning.

Faith writes:

Of course He's describing events coming as the Roman army destroys the temple and the city, but it's mind-deadening to reduce Jesus' teaching to that level. And why would He need to use such symbolic language for such a mjndane message? They'd asked Him when He was going to put down the Romans because they had no clue to His true heavenly mission to save the entire world. The disciples really didn't understand a lot of what Jesus said at the time. It took His death and resurrection to make it clear to them. IT was never about the Romans or any earthly events at all except as carriers of the heavenly truth.

Yes, Jesus did have an eschatological message but thi isn't it. It was about what the Romans represented and Jesus is saying that a militant violent rebellion was wrong and if you fight evil with evil then evil is bound to win.

Faith writes:

Like your mind-numbing idea about a kind of love that supposedly we can learn to have rather than the expression of the Holy Spirit given only to believers.

Just read the parable of the good Samaritan or Matthew 25, or when we are told by Matthew that it is those that "do" the will of the Father and not just those who recognize Him as Lord.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 04-13-2020 4:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:17 AM GDR has responded
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:24 AM GDR has responded
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:36 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 92 of 103 (875079)
04-13-2020 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
04-13-2020 4:06 PM


Re: There is still more to learn
Faith writes:

You show that Jesus refers back to the Old Testament, such as Daniel for the description of the Son of Man coming in the clouds but you reduce that to a mind-numbingly mundane statement that all it means is that He is the Messiah instead of pointing to His return on the clouds. They still have to experience His crucifixion which is going to panic them, but then they'll watch Him be carried up into a cloud. Which you want to turn into something other than an actual cloud.

One other thing that I forgot to mention. We agree that is highly likely that Luke and Acts share a common author. There is one account of the so-called ascension at the end of Luke and another at the beginning of Acts which ties them together.
This is from Luke 24
Luke 24 writes:

51 While he was blessing them, he withdrew from them and was carried up into heaven.

Then this is from Acts 1
Acts 1 writes:

9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.


In the Gospel He tells it simply, and in Acts he employs hyperbole. He is saying the same in both in that He left them to be in the presence of God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 04-13-2020 4:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:33 AM GDR has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 93 of 103 (875082)
04-14-2020 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by GDR
04-13-2020 6:28 PM


Re: There is still more to learn
The worldly cause of it seems truly irrelevant. We can say it's God's judgment though.

Well OK. But it is judgement from the POV that when nations do stupid things like Israel did in 66 AD things don't go well. Jesus was warning them against that.

But He says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the rebellion against Rome, Zip, Nada, Nothing. He warns that judgment is coming, that's all. He says the temple is going to be destroyed. He says they need to get out of the city. There is NOTHING in anything He says about the reason the Romans are coming. You are reading that into it. It's not there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by GDR, posted 04-13-2020 6:28 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by GDR, posted 04-14-2020 1:24 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 94 of 103 (875084)
04-14-2020 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by GDR
04-13-2020 6:28 PM


Re: There is still more to learn
If it were about end times and an action by God then why would Jesus say that they should escape Judea and head into the hills to hide.

Sorry, there's some confusion here. I'm not saying this part of the discourse is about the end times, it's just about the Roman destruction of 70AD and my only point about that is that I don't see anything in Jesus' message about the reason for the attack, just a warning about the attack itself and that they need to leave the city to be safe. That's all, nothing about the rebellion that is the cause of the attack that you are saying is Jesus' main message, how such rebellion is a bad idea, nothing at all along those lines. They would no doubt be aware that the Romans are coming to quell the rebellion anyway but Jesus is saying absolutely nothing about that.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by GDR, posted 04-13-2020 6:28 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by GDR, posted 04-14-2020 1:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 95 of 103 (875085)
04-14-2020 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
04-14-2020 1:17 AM


Re: There is still more to learn
I'll respond to what you actually said.

Edited by GDR, : Misread Faith's message


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:27 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 96 of 103 (875086)
04-14-2020 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by GDR
04-14-2020 1:24 AM


Re: There is still more to learn
I'm utterly lost, GDR, how about you giving a quote or something so I'll have some idea what you are referring to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by GDR, posted 04-14-2020 1:24 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 97 of 103 (875087)
04-14-2020 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by GDR
04-13-2020 7:25 PM


Re: There is still more to learn
You are suggesting that since Luke doesn't mention the cloud in both references that there wasn't a cloud? We know Jesus was received into heaven but that doesn't mean there wasn't an actual cloud that they saw with their two eyes and that when jesus returns there will also be a visible cloud. This is a meaningless distinction you are making.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by GDR, posted 04-13-2020 7:25 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by GDR, posted 04-14-2020 1:43 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 98 of 103 (875088)
04-14-2020 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
04-14-2020 1:24 AM


Re: There is still more to learn
Faith writes:

Sorry, there's some confusion here. I'm not saying this part of the discourse is about the end times, it's just about the Roman destruction of 70AD and my only point about that is that I don't see anything in Jesus' message about the reason for the attack, just a warning about the attack itself and that they need to leave the city to be safe. That's all, nothing about the rebellion that is the cause of the attack that you are saying is Jesus' main message, how such rebellion is a bad idea, nothing at all along those lines. They would no doubt be aware that the Romans are coming to quell the rebellion anyway but Jesus is saying absolutely nothing about that.

The Romans have a good thing going. They are taxing them to death and they are in complete control. It is clear when Jesus says to go the extra mile, turn the other cheek and love your enemy they would know that even though this is not just about the Romans but it would certainly apply to them.

The Romans are not going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Jesus's listeners would know that he was talking about the Roman response to rebellion. That message is all the way through the Gospels.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:24 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 99 of 103 (875089)
04-14-2020 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by GDR
04-13-2020 6:28 PM


Re: There is still more to learn
If we take it as an actual cloud then it is meaningless, but when we understand it as Mark intended, that Jesus' resurrected body left to be in the presence of God it has incredible meaning.

But again what is meaningless is this silly distinction you insist on making. Nobody doubts that Jesus went into heaven, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a literal visible cloud that He disappeared into.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by GDR, posted 04-13-2020 6:28 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by GDR, posted 04-14-2020 1:51 AM Faith has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 100 of 103 (875091)
04-14-2020 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
04-14-2020 1:33 AM


Re: There is still more to learn
Faith writes:

You are suggesting that since Luke doesn't mention the cloud in both references that there wasn't a cloud? We know Jesus was received into heaven but that doesn't mean there wasn't an actual cloud that they saw with their two eyes and that when jesus returns there will also be a visible cloud. This is a meaningless distinction you are making.

It actually does make a difference if getting it right actually matters. If it was just about there being an actual cloud that He left in without then stretching that into how He would return then who cares.

However, you have drawn out of that a whole end times scenario that just isn't there.

Also what is important is that He left into the presence of God. The only reason why you hang on to it being an actual cloud is that you need it to be to support your way of understanding the Scriptures, and as so often happens it leads to a complete misunderstanding of what the point is that the writer is trying to make.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:33 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 101 of 103 (875092)
04-14-2020 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
04-14-2020 1:36 AM


Re: There is still more to learn
Faith writes:

But again what is meaningless is this silly distinction you insist on making. Nobody doubts that Jesus went into heaven, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a literal visible cloud that He disappeared into.

But it means more than that. It isn't just that He went into God's heavenly dimension but the writer is saying that the metaphorical cloud is also tied to the metaphorical cloud in Daniel 7. It is about Jesus, the Son of Man being presented to God, the Ancient of Days.

If you worry about it being an actual cloud then the whole point of what is intended to be understood. is going to be missed


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:36 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 2:55 AM GDR has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 102 of 103 (875096)
04-14-2020 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by GDR
04-14-2020 1:51 AM


Re: There is still more to learn
So what do you think the disciples actually saw when Jesus ascended to the Father? Did they look up at all? Was He standing there talking to them and just suddenly went "poof" and disappeared? You deny that "up" means "up" and you deny that they saw a real cloud, though that is what the words of the passage clearly say they saw. So what on earth do you think they saw?

If He just suddenly disappeared why wouldn't that be said? He DID just disappear suddenly after talking to the men He met on the Road to Emmaus. Just suddenly went poof and disappeared. Same thing when Philip was suddenly transported to talk to the Ethiopian eunuch. So if that happened it would have been described. But instead the scripture says they saw Jesus rise UP and disappear into a CLOUD. You say that's metaphorical. Well we know He went into heaven, another dimension, but that doesn't make "up" or the cloud metaphorical. What on EARTH are you talking about?

OK all you mean is that heaven isn't necessarily up but somehow you make the real "up" and the real "cloud" intp something they aren't just to make that simple point. I don't have much more hair to tear out so I think I'll just chew on my fingers or something.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by GDR, posted 04-14-2020 1:51 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by GDR, posted 04-14-2020 10:24 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 103 of 103 (875115)
04-14-2020 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
04-14-2020 2:55 AM


Re: There is still more to learn
Faith writes:

So what do you think the disciples actually saw when Jesus ascended to the Father? Did they look up at all? Was He standing there talking to them and just suddenly went "poof" and disappeared? You deny that "up" means "up" and you deny that they saw a real cloud, though that is what the words of the passage clearly say they saw. So what on earth do you think they saw?
If He just suddenly disappeared why wouldn't that be said? He DID just disappear suddenly after talking to the men He met on the Road to Emmaus. Just suddenly went poof and disappeared. Same thing when Philip was suddenly transported to talk to the Ethiopian eunuch. So if that happened it would have been described. But instead the scripture says they saw Jesus rise UP and disappear into a CLOUD. You say that's metaphorical. Well we know He went into heaven, another dimension, but that doesn't make "up" or the cloud metaphorical. What on EARTH are you talking about?

OK all you mean is that heaven isn't necessarily up but somehow you make the real "up" and the real "cloud" intp something they aren't just to make that simple point. I don't have much more hair to tear out so I think I'll just chew on my fingers or something.

I'm sorry that you have been suspended Faith and I pray that you will be able to avoid the virus.

I'll answer your post though.

I have no idea what they saw. He isn't writing about what they literally saw. He is simply saying that after the roughly 40 day period after the resurrection that Jesus went to be with the Father. He wrote in such way that it resonated with Daniel 7.

In other cases as after the His time with the 2 on the road to Emmaus, it is said that He did just disappear.

Hopefully your hair grows back quickly.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 2:55 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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