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Author | Topic: "Best" evidence for evolution. | |||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: I can't make out your chart very well but I'd guess that you are right, that I'd make Canidae my Species or Kind. You're going to have to stick with 'kind', or the scientific 'Family'. 'Species' has a different meaning.
I'm looking for groups that are morphologically identifiable by an unvarying list of features, and genetically related. Every one of those categories has identifiable morphological features and are genetically related. That's why they're in the categories they're in.
The groups above wouldn't be genetically tied together but also they wouldn't be morphologically related Except that they proveably are. That's why they're grouped that way. This is science Faith; it's not made up, you can see exactly how if you need to. But, of course, you won't.
So I think my categories aren't quite those you say I must share with the taxonomists. They'll be identical because you're doing the same things that taxonomists do. Mind you, it's get damn complicated with some organisms, but you've got enough on your plate just dealing with the big and obvious ones like dogs and cat. Not that you're actually going to attempt any of this of course.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: All those below are just various subspecies, certainly to be included in the Kind as microevolved from it You can't mix terminology. If you recognise animals below your kind as individual non-interbreeding groups - which I'm sure you do - then you need a category name for them. Maybe kinders and sub-kinders. Whatever you call them they'll settle into the same groups that science has already defined. And if you don't call them anything, they'll still exist.
but I don't see any need for "Genus" for instance. I'm sure that you'll soon find that you do otherwise you'd have to name each animal individually. And as for anything above Family, well just as an obvious example how about insects? They're an enormous Class - way above family but maybe you'd put them as a kind? Beetles alone contain 400,000 species and, as an Order they are also above family. Are beetles a kind? It doesn't matter what you call these groups, you're doing what has already been done, then drawing a totally arbitrary line in different places in a totally subjective way. No two creationists would be able to agree what the kind is because you have no objective way of drawing the line.
Some time back someone here said jackals and foxes are not related to dogs, which unfortunately stuck in my head, so I didn't expect to find them on a chart like yours. But I'm glad they are there. So the level of developed detail in your new taxonomy is that 'some time back some told you something'. Impressive. You'll never even start to do this task because you know that you can't. Instead, what you'll do is tell yourself that you've done for cats and dogs and that'll do for you.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Well my prophecy came true with a couple of days. Fastest yet.
Basically you're not interested because you've begun to realise that you're making shit up that you can't defend, yet again. 'Kind' has no objective descriptive value. Done.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: Thanks again. Your welcome, but you know that's as basic as basic gets. I really wish you'd actually learn something.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: I always like to compare this to the cheetah which was "bred" in nature apparently by its parent being reduced to very few individuals which were then isolated and bred among themselves producing the wonderful cheetah. It is a wonderful animal,but its survival is threatened because its genetic depletion makes it vulnerable and compromises its ability to reproduce. The cheetah came about by a drastic reduction in numbers in Nature, which is how purebreds are made through domestic breeding, and the genetic result is the same as if it were intentionally bred for its characteristics. Uh? Where are you getting that from? Cheetah's are related to pumas and lynx and evolved in the usual way millions of years ago. Cheetah - WikipediaJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: What haven't I "learned?" Pretty much everything.
I've learned how Linnaeus organized things in some categories. But I need a different approach since I'm trying to define the Kind. Meanwhile I "learned" the other point of view. There isn't another point of view, if you're arranging organisms by morphology and genetic relatedness you are forced to arrive at our current taxonomy because that is how it is done. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: What I learned is that the Kind has very little to do with the Linnaean taxonomy. The Family category does it for dogs but not for birds and probably other creatures will be all over the Linnaean chart as far as establishing their Kind goes. The Kind is ultimately genetically defined and that works just fine for the Family level for dogs, but nothing above that on the taxonomic chart is relevant except for academic purposes. Sure, Mammal, Carnivore, but irrelevant for defining the original created Kind. How do you know, all you've looked at is cats and dogs? And by looked I mean you've seen a picture. You tell us you're not interested in anything else, couldn't care less about insecta but have decided - from total ignorance - that all trilobites are a kind; an entire class, 4 categories above family. Go girl. Ultimately whatever you do (but of course you won't actually do anything) will arrive at the same classification as our modern taxonomy and you'll then arbitrarily pick a category and claim it to be a kind. You picked family for dogs and cats. Only a few thousand more decisions to make.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: How do I know mammals and carnivores are irrelevant? Well, I'm the one trying to establish the criteria here so I'm the one who knows that mammals and carnivores don't fit the criteria Right, so you and you alone are the arbiter of what is classed as a kind.
This seat-of-the-pants discussion has to be pretty limited. And they say Americans don't get irony.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: Well I'm the only one here trying to figure out what a Kind might be so I guess for this discussion I'm the "arbiter," yes. We bow to your knowledge and intellect. What are your thoughts on worms? When is a worm not a worm? We know with certainty that you'll do absolutely nothing about the Faith Classification System while thinking that you have. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Oh, silly me, you've already published your taxonomy? Please provide a reference.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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