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Author Topic:   Continuing the Endless Discussion between GDR and traditional Protestantism
GDR
Member (Idle past 188 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 87 of 103 (875004)
04-12-2020 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
04-12-2020 1:31 PM


There is still more to learn
Faith writes:

GDR, the scriptures weren't generally available until the printing press and that did come soon after the Reformation I think (?). Otherwise only priests like Luther had the Bible. And Erasmus who also had the Greek manuscripts to work from in doing his translation, and I think Luther had Erasmus' translation and wasn't just confined to the Vulgate. Also Bibles in other languages than Latin and Greek. Bibles all had to be copied by hand until the printing press.

My understanding is that Erasmus refined both Latin and Greek manuscripts. Luther worked from the Latin translating to German and Wycliffe finished up the translation into English although much had been done earlier. The printing press had a huge impact.

Faith writes:

You don't say WHAT "light" was supposedly shed on the scriptures by the new documents. Possibly new insights into the culture of the time of the apostles and earlier but nothing that changed the meaning of the scripture. Good preachers usually include the cultural context of the passage they are preaching on, it brings it to life. But as for affecting the meaning why should it change? All the books of the Bible were passed down through the centuries, why would that change? There's a whole discipline of textual criticisim that compares all the copies and fragments of copies we have to correct small errors that accumulated in some lines of copying but they are able to do that. If you think some kind of substantive changes occured please be specific.

Firstly you can’t change the meaning of the Scriptures, the meaning is simply what the authors intended it to mean. What can change is that with so much more historical knowledge we have a better understanding of what the writers intended.
One of the areas for example is understanding that much of what Jesus talked about was specifically directed against the militant revolutionary nationalism at the time. When He referred to the horrendous upheaval that would happen in the life times of some of those present He was talking about Jerusalem and the Temple. He wasn’t speaking eschatologically. In fact there is a great deal that has been taken to be about end times when it was about His message opposing any violent revolution. We are much better able to grasp the anti-revolutionary understanding of Jesus’ message now, than was understood in the past.
Just a little thing but for example we see this verse from Matthew 11
quote:
7 As John’s disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind?
The reed that was mentioned in that verse represents Tiberious Caesar as that was used as an image for him and was even on the coins of that era.

The historical study has also seen so much of what has been perceived as a message within our own cultural contexts and put it back where it firmly belongs in its 1st century Jewish culture and understood was it fits in with the Jewish beliefs of that day.

It is a lot of little things like that but it is the overall when the NT is read with an understanding of the historical backdrop including the political pressures on Jesus but virtually every power group in the country it brings the enormity of the whole narrative so much closer to home.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 1:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 9:55 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 188 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 89 of 103 (875034)
04-13-2020 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
04-12-2020 9:55 PM


Re: There is still more to learn
Faith writes:

I don't see anything anywhere that justifies your idea that Jesus was in any way concerned with the revolutionary activities around him. He seems to me to be utterly uninvolved with any of that. Doesn't He put down one zealot? Sorry I'm not remembering, I would have to do more research to answer you here and I don't have the patience so I'm afraid I'm more or less tossing this off. Jesus was concerned with the religious leaders, the Pharisees in particular, who had mangled the scriptures to pile on all kinds of traditiona that made life more difficult for people and deprived them of salvation. That's the theme I see running through the New Testament, nothing to do with any militant movements.


Yes He was a concerned about the Pharisees and probably even more the Priests and Levites who pretty much ran the Temple. (Look at the parable of the Good Samaritan. That was only part of His message though.
His political message, was consistent throughout His teaching. The basic message was that the Romans were a problem but the real problem was the fundamental evil behind the Romans. His message was that the weapon against evil is the weapon of love. Thus we have in direct teaching on how to deal with the Romans is: love your enemy, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile etc.
He tells of the destruction that will come in the Gospels if they ignore that teaching which He seems to pretty much assume will be the case. He cries for Jerusalem and says that they have missed the time of Yahweh’s visitation.

In Mark 13 He talks about what will happen as a result of revolution.

Mark13 writes:

1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!” 2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”


Now we can again see very earthly consequences of a militant revolution.
Then we can look at a couple of verses that talk about Jesus’ disciples will face after Jesus is no longer with them and they will have to carry this message to the people without Him there.
Mark 13 writes:

9 “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.


Mark 13 writes:

11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

Mark 13 writes:

14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter,


It goes on but that is enough to make my point. This is Jesus saying in language understood by His 1st century Jewish disciples to outline what they will face as a result of rebellion which did take place in the great war of 66-70AD. There is a lot of Jewish apocalyptic language in there as well but here is one interesting one.
Mark 13 writes:

24 “But in those days, following that distress, “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

Here Jesus is going back to the language used in Isaiah 13, particularly verse 10 where Isaiah is describing the fall of Babylon. This clearly about very earthly events, and not about any end of the world scenario. (If was about the end of the world there wouldn’t be any point of telling them to flee to the hills.)
Mark 13 writes:

30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.


Of course this all came true in the life times of some there in the great war in 70AD. The world is still here.
This same type of teaching can be found in other parts of the Bible. As a prophet and one who preaches God’s truth He is saying that they should abandon the idea of armed revolution as it isn’t of God, and then giving the result of what will happen if they go ahead with it.

The other point that Jesus makes in all of this is after the apocalyptic message in verses 24-25 He says this.

Mark 13 writes:

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

This again is in reference to Daniel 7 where Daniels says this.
Daniel 7 writes:

13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

Jesus is saying that when this happens it can be understood that He is the messiah and that He is with the Father, (the Ancient of Days) and has been given dominion. It in essence vindicates His life, message and death, which of course includes His call to a peaceful, not violent revolution.

Faith writes:

The verse about John the Baptist being compared to a reed hardly seems to lend itself to an image of Tiberius Caesar and the idea just leaves me speechless.

John the Baptist had nothing to do with it. The reed was a symbol of Tiberius Caesar. It was even on a coin minted at the time. It had Tiberius’ head on one side and a woman holding a reed on the other.
Roman coin
Article that talks about the reed as a symbol of Tiberius. Scroll down to the bottom of page 59.
Census, Tribute and Tax Collectors
Here is the Jesus’ reference to it in Luke 7
Luke 7 writes:

24 After John’s messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 25 If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. 26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27 This is the one about whom it is written: “ ‘I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.’


Jesus is talking about John the Baptist and asking John’s followers what they expected to see. Were they looking for another Caesar like Tiberius, (as represented by his symbol the reed), followed by another and so on, or were they looking for another self-serving king. He is saying what they found was a prophet.
It is hardly earth shattering but it is an interesting item that we would have no idea about without understanding the historical context.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 9:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 04-13-2020 4:06 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 188 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 91 of 103 (875075)
04-13-2020 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
04-13-2020 4:06 PM


Re: There is still more to learn
Faith writes:

Yes, that's Jesus' famous prophcy of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, The cause of it seems unimportant. The Roman army coming in to quell the Jewish uprising? From God's perspective the destruction of the temple is judgment since Jesus' death is the final sacrifice which the Jews do not recognize, the sacrifice that ended all the sacrifices in the temple. The worldly cause of it seems truly irrelevant. We can say it's God's judgment though.

Well OK. But it is judgement from the POV that when nations do stupid things like Israel did in 66 AD things don't go well. Jesus was warning them against that.

Faith writes:

You lose me completely with your emphasis on the earthly causes of the sufferings to come, even reducing the Olivet discourse to a mere teaching against revolution. It's always understood to point to signs by which we can recognize when He is to come back to earth in His Second Coming. But all that is eliminated in your thinking.

I don't recognize it because it isn't there.

If it were about end times and an action by God then why would Jesus say that they should escape Judea and head into the hills to hide. Is He saying that God wouldn't find them there? Why would it matter that it was winter, or that women were pregnant. Why would you be handed over and flogged. I could go on. These things would really matter if they were under siege by the Romans, but hardly if is about Jesus' return.

Faith writes:

You show that Jesus refers back to the Old Testament, such as Daniel for the description of the Son of Man coming in the clouds but you reduce that to a mind-numbingly mundane statement that all it means is that He is the Messiah instead of pointing to His return on the clouds. They still have to experience His crucifixion which is going to panic them, but then they'll see Him alive in His glorified body, and then watch Him be carried up into a cloud. Which you want to turn into something other than an actual cloud.

It is anything but mundane. It isn't about being confirmed as the messiah it is about being enthroned as part of the godhead and given dominion over all nations.

If we take it as an actual cloud then it is meaningless, but when we understand it as Mark intended, that Jesus' resurrected body left to be in the presence of God it has incredible meaning.

Faith writes:

Of course He's describing events coming as the Roman army destroys the temple and the city, but it's mind-deadening to reduce Jesus' teaching to that level. And why would He need to use such symbolic language for such a mjndane message? They'd asked Him when He was going to put down the Romans because they had no clue to His true heavenly mission to save the entire world. The disciples really didn't understand a lot of what Jesus said at the time. It took His death and resurrection to make it clear to them. IT was never about the Romans or any earthly events at all except as carriers of the heavenly truth.

Yes, Jesus did have an eschatological message but thi isn't it. It was about what the Romans represented and Jesus is saying that a militant violent rebellion was wrong and if you fight evil with evil then evil is bound to win.

Faith writes:

Like your mind-numbing idea about a kind of love that supposedly we can learn to have rather than the expression of the Holy Spirit given only to believers.

Just read the parable of the good Samaritan or Matthew 25, or when we are told by Matthew that it is those that "do" the will of the Father and not just those who recognize Him as Lord.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 04-13-2020 4:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:17 AM GDR has replied
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:24 AM GDR has replied
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:36 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 188 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 92 of 103 (875079)
04-13-2020 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
04-13-2020 4:06 PM


Re: There is still more to learn
Faith writes:

You show that Jesus refers back to the Old Testament, such as Daniel for the description of the Son of Man coming in the clouds but you reduce that to a mind-numbingly mundane statement that all it means is that He is the Messiah instead of pointing to His return on the clouds. They still have to experience His crucifixion which is going to panic them, but then they'll watch Him be carried up into a cloud. Which you want to turn into something other than an actual cloud.

One other thing that I forgot to mention. We agree that is highly likely that Luke and Acts share a common author. There is one account of the so-called ascension at the end of Luke and another at the beginning of Acts which ties them together.
This is from Luke 24
Luke 24 writes:

51 While he was blessing them, he withdrew from them and was carried up into heaven.

Then this is from Acts 1
Acts 1 writes:

9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.


In the Gospel He tells it simply, and in Acts he employs hyperbole. He is saying the same in both in that He left them to be in the presence of God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 04-13-2020 4:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:33 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 188 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 95 of 103 (875085)
04-14-2020 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
04-14-2020 1:17 AM


Re: There is still more to learn
I'll respond to what you actually said.

Edited by GDR, : Misread Faith's message


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:27 AM GDR has taken no action

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 188 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 98 of 103 (875088)
04-14-2020 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
04-14-2020 1:24 AM


Re: There is still more to learn
Faith writes:

Sorry, there's some confusion here. I'm not saying this part of the discourse is about the end times, it's just about the Roman destruction of 70AD and my only point about that is that I don't see anything in Jesus' message about the reason for the attack, just a warning about the attack itself and that they need to leave the city to be safe. That's all, nothing about the rebellion that is the cause of the attack that you are saying is Jesus' main message, how such rebellion is a bad idea, nothing at all along those lines. They would no doubt be aware that the Romans are coming to quell the rebellion anyway but Jesus is saying absolutely nothing about that.

The Romans have a good thing going. They are taxing them to death and they are in complete control. It is clear when Jesus says to go the extra mile, turn the other cheek and love your enemy they would know that even though this is not just about the Romans but it would certainly apply to them.

The Romans are not going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Jesus's listeners would know that he was talking about the Roman response to rebellion. That message is all the way through the Gospels.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:24 AM Faith has taken no action

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 188 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 100 of 103 (875091)
04-14-2020 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
04-14-2020 1:33 AM


Re: There is still more to learn
Faith writes:

You are suggesting that since Luke doesn't mention the cloud in both references that there wasn't a cloud? We know Jesus was received into heaven but that doesn't mean there wasn't an actual cloud that they saw with their two eyes and that when jesus returns there will also be a visible cloud. This is a meaningless distinction you are making.

It actually does make a difference if getting it right actually matters. If it was just about there being an actual cloud that He left in without then stretching that into how He would return then who cares.

However, you have drawn out of that a whole end times scenario that just isn't there.

Also what is important is that He left into the presence of God. The only reason why you hang on to it being an actual cloud is that you need it to be to support your way of understanding the Scriptures, and as so often happens it leads to a complete misunderstanding of what the point is that the writer is trying to make.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:33 AM Faith has taken no action

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 188 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 101 of 103 (875092)
04-14-2020 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
04-14-2020 1:36 AM


Re: There is still more to learn
Faith writes:

But again what is meaningless is this silly distinction you insist on making. Nobody doubts that Jesus went into heaven, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a literal visible cloud that He disappeared into.

But it means more than that. It isn't just that He went into God's heavenly dimension but the writer is saying that the metaphorical cloud is also tied to the metaphorical cloud in Daniel 7. It is about Jesus, the Son of Man being presented to God, the Ancient of Days.

If you worry about it being an actual cloud then the whole point of what is intended to be understood. is going to be missed


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 1:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 2:55 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 188 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 103 of 103 (875115)
04-14-2020 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
04-14-2020 2:55 AM


Re: There is still more to learn
Faith writes:

So what do you think the disciples actually saw when Jesus ascended to the Father? Did they look up at all? Was He standing there talking to them and just suddenly went "poof" and disappeared? You deny that "up" means "up" and you deny that they saw a real cloud, though that is what the words of the passage clearly say they saw. So what on earth do you think they saw?
If He just suddenly disappeared why wouldn't that be said? He DID just disappear suddenly after talking to the men He met on the Road to Emmaus. Just suddenly went poof and disappeared. Same thing when Philip was suddenly transported to talk to the Ethiopian eunuch. So if that happened it would have been described. But instead the scripture says they saw Jesus rise UP and disappear into a CLOUD. You say that's metaphorical. Well we know He went into heaven, another dimension, but that doesn't make "up" or the cloud metaphorical. What on EARTH are you talking about?

OK all you mean is that heaven isn't necessarily up but somehow you make the real "up" and the real "cloud" intp something they aren't just to make that simple point. I don't have much more hair to tear out so I think I'll just chew on my fingers or something.

I'm sorry that you have been suspended Faith and I pray that you will be able to avoid the virus.

I'll answer your post though.

I have no idea what they saw. He isn't writing about what they literally saw. He is simply saying that after the roughly 40 day period after the resurrection that Jesus went to be with the Father. He wrote in such way that it resonated with Daniel 7.

In other cases as after the His time with the 2 on the road to Emmaus, it is said that He did just disappear.

Hopefully your hair grows back quickly.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 04-14-2020 2:55 AM Faith has taken no action

  
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