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Author | Topic: Should we teach both evolution and religion in school? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: One simple question: Where is God right now? Because I am a Christian...The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If you believe that God is only a creation of our mind, you are NOT a believer. Sorry, Charlie.
You may talk a good talk and have some logical arguments, but you are not helping anyone...apart from perhaps taking out their trash and helping take shopping carts back inside the store. Your own pride and insistence on your own explanations of what it means to be a Christian are at best helping you to justify your membership in a club according only to your own definition. You might try and pray for wisdom. Of course, your own belief suggests that only a character whom your own mind creates can even respond to you. I'll keep you in prayer, however. Edited by Phat, : clarificationThe only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo, replying to candle2 writes: Apart from what the Bible says, all that we have are opinions. You may even argue that the Bible itself has nothing better.
You're misunderstanding what the knowledge of God is. Colossians 1:15 writes: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Colossians 2:9 writes: For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 1 Timothy 6:16 writes: who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. And then again, you may not have a clever retort. At which time I will say that we are making progress! The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Hi David. I read with interest this post of yours and felt inclined to add my 2 cents worth.
I think that I get the concept of "The Tribe" but feel that my definition is limited to Christians who claim to have been "Born Again". Thus jar is not a tribal member unless he too is a missionary and quite good at being a stealth operative--he ranks evidence ahead of belief, which hinders his ability to accept the Spirit...in fact he continually asks what "Accepting Jesus" or "Feeling The Spirit" or "Being In Communion with The Spirit even mean. Tribal members never ask such questions. Also regarding our suspended member Faith, I hesitantly even included her in The Tribe due to the fact that she was not an effective missionary. But then again, I have many hangups I need to correct in myself, so I will at this point shut up. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: This is on the same plain as the other topic I just responded to you at. The fact is that I sense God's presence when I pray. The reality is that God exists and seeks to know us. The evidence is that More gets done at a soup kitchen full of prayer warriors than simply a bunch of liberals talking football, women, and politics. The whole existence of the Tribal members is within the bubble closed off from facts, reality, evidence, truth, honesty and in the comfort of the fantasy and god they create.The truth is that Jesus Christ is alive. Honesty may suggest that we both are correct in our approach. You cant lump me in with a bunch of goats simply because I value the first part of the greatest commandment despite being "unable to explain it" tro you or anyone else. If you guys cant figure it out, go talk about football, politics, and women while you feed, clothe, and encourage the least of these. I'm sure that He won't kick you out of Heaven for such behavior. ...and in the comfort of the fantasy and god they create. The difference between us is that you don't care what "God" you create and assume He could care less if you know Him or not...whereas the One whom I create is very interested in my development as a human, a member of global society, and how I feed His sheep. Edited by Phat, : added pointThe only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
random tribal member writes: I've know many that think like this. They are convinced that all of you are going to hell simply for not agreeing with them and/or attending their church. In fact, I think I once thought this way earlier in my "Christian walk." Why do people get angry when I try to share the word of God with them? I only do it because I care about them deeply and don't want them to end up in hell. I feel like some people avoid me because of this. Is there any way to get through to them? The fact is that God seeks only for you to trust Him rather than mock the entire idea that He is real. He likely would have us loving each other despite our differences rather than ostracizing each other as American Politics has conveniently done for itself.
dwise1 indirectly writes: This point is likely true. During my many years here at EvC, I will admit that I seek the intellectual humanist crowd here to at least understand my God rather than mock Him as a figment of my limited imagination. I'm not worried that they(you) will go to hell, however. I'm more concerned that you find no need to understand Heaven or what it means to be called out and chosen by the Creator of all seen and unseen. Perhaps in that regard jar is more effective here using the God that he markets. And you of all people know the basic character and personality of Jesus Freaks. I used to get on your case for ranting at Faith when you were a bit tipsy. Not that she didn't deserve it!
If this tactic was about converting people it would be considered a horrible failure. It recruits almost no one who isn't already willing to join. Bake sales are more effective recruiting tools.On the other hand, it is extremely effective at creating a deep tribal feeling among its own members. I find that I get along better here at EvC than I do with tribal members. I rarely hang out with them unless we are feeding, clothing, and encouraging the community somewhere. I won't say that I am any more intelligent than most of them are but I will say that I ask questions that most of them won't ask. I will admit that I actually like being rejected. It energizes me and challenges me. Sitting in a room full of people who agree with my definitions of God never challenges me at all. The rejection they receive is actually more important than the few people they convert. It causes them to feel a level of discomfort around the people they attempt to talk to. These become the "others". These uncomfortable feelings go away when they come back to their congregation, the "Tribe". If you take a good look at the process it becomes fairly clear. In most cases, the religious person starts out from their own group, who is encouraging and supportive. They are then sent out into the harsh world where people repeatedly reject them. Mainly because they are trained to be so annoying.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: I'm not so sure its that easy. Do you think it's silly or pointless to talk with Jesus every day and several times a day? Should they prepare a rubber room for me? If you had figured it out then you would be able to explain it.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZPaul3 writes: The Bible even mentions similar divisions.
Except you are applying it far too liberally. It's not just one single "Christian Tribe", nor one single "'born again' Christian Tribe", nor one single "fundamentalist Christian Tribe." Instead of "Tribes", why not just call them "Legion" because they are so many?Rom 16:17-19 writes:
And... 17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.1 Cor 1:10-19 writes: 10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel-not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Now to be fair, jar brings up the fact that the Bible was written, edited, redacted and preached by and through man. In fact, I found a clever meme on Facebook...let me see if I can reproduce it here:
Update Your Browser | Facebook Thus to summarize, what we can learn about God can only be spread through the human conduit. jar has always argued this, but my beef with him (at least currently) is that he lets logic reason and perceived reality get in the way of spiritual expression. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Noted. But I would be interested to know if YOU believe that you talk with GOD when you pray and/or meditate? Do you believe that He really doesn't care what you pray about but only what you do? Do you ask yourself the same questions you ask me...namely how do you know its God? Or have you found a personal answer and belief regarding prayer? The major reason that I judge you to be divided from the club(s) I agree with is because you believe and think that simply by doing, any human can do the will of Jesus and in so answering the charge, become accepted....without surrendering or changing their basic fleshy behavior. And all I can say is that maybe God agrees with you and has something to teach me. I always called you the Apostle To The Atheists so I can see a reason God would extend His Grace even further than believers. You are still placing SOURCE over content. What is important is how you respond to the "conversations", how you react to the CONTENT of the talks. It must be CONTENT over source. That does Jesus tell you to do in those conversations? And that's really the difference. The extreme result of placing SOURCE over content is "Got Mitt Un". It is "The Peoples Temple Agricultural Project"; the Spanish Inquisition, the Russian pogroms, the cultural genocide of the 18th and 19th century and even continuing today. If all you get from the conversations is "Whatta good boy you are.", "Way to go!", "You get a gold star today!" then they are most likely harmless. If they make you feel better then they are good. If they make you do more for the least of these then that's even better. It's CONTENT over source.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You know no more about god than I or anybody else. You are assuming, of course, that God is not involved in the communion. After all, hypothetically how could I *know* that you had an insight from God that you keep to yourself? Your erroneous conclusions that it's all made up mythos lead me to believe that you don't, but quite frankly I don't know. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: OK lets roll with this argument. You claim that all that can be known about God(as book character) and Jesus(as book character) are solely in the book and that's all the evidence that anyone has. I will argue that believers themselves are evidence but you will say its cobblers. So we disagree.
All you can propagate is your own and other's ideas about god - ie Human propaganda. Tangle, earlier up the thread writes: And if we go with jars argument as to human conduits, the most reasonable humans will solely carry the belief forward. The loons and heretics will all be dismissed. Science has nothing whatsoever to say about god. Loads of scientists believe in God.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
since there is absolutely no wway I could ever know there is no reason to even speculate. But there is a way you can know...beyond a reasonable doubt. You just refuse to allow that Faith.
I pray about what I should do. That is nothing to know other than what I do and do not do. I do the same. And I hear no audible voice or voices. I get internal impressions....knowing what it is I should do in any given situation. Often these impressions challenge me and go against my feelings.
And that is important Phat, it is the CONTENT that is significant and not the source. For me, the CONTENT and THE SOURCE are one and the same. Content without source is not my belief.
phat writes:
The major reason that I judge you to be divided from the club(s) I agree with is because you believe and think that simply by doing, any human can do the will of Jesus and in so answering the charge, become accepted....without surrendering or changing their basic fleshy behavior.jar writes: And this is where we disagree. You have thrown the source away. You have gone with evidence and trashed belief. You are free to believe whatever fool thing you want, but those of us whom you call foolish are now calling you foolish for your choice. Keep doing what Jesus said to do, however, and He likely will have mercy on you and those whom you have taught that it is ok to remain atheists and agnostics. As long as they too follow your behavior, you all should do fine and be accepted by the One whom you persecute. The second part of that sentence, " become accepted....without surrendering or changing their basic fleshy behavior" has no meaning and is just silly word salad. It is not anything worth even a moment's thought, an absurdity. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: This is exactly how I feel when I read what YOU write. And whats also sad(and makes me a bit angry at satan) is that you think that the evidence supports your argument yet you are blind and remain blind to what is actually going on.(You too, ringo) It's truly pitiful and as a Christian, utterly embarrassing that so may Christians can be so totally divorced from all reality. Not that I support Kleinman, mind you.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
dad,addressing AZPaul3 writes: In the interest of providing a readable thread for the benefit of past,present and future peanut galleries, I will help AZPaul provide you with an argument. I also would be interested to know precisely the sources where you get your information. Perhaps we can have a basic discussion on this topic.
Not sure why you spam a bunch of links. Try posting a sentence or paragraph from a link and debate that, using a link only as a source we can check.By the way, I am aware of the created trait of being able to adapt and evolve, so evolution is not an issue at all. Where evolving started or stopped is an issue. The TOE has no clue what evolved from what, or when or why, and has piled error on false belief and baseless assumptions, while totally misunderstanding the fossil record, genetics and other basics. Five Proofs of Evolution1. The universal genetic code. All cells on Earth, from our white blood cells, to simple bacteria, to cells in the leaves of trees, are capable of reading any piece of DNA from any life form on Earth. This is very strong evidence for a common ancestor from which all life descended. 2. The fossil record. The fossil record shows that the simplest fossils will be found in the oldest rocks, and it can also show a smooth and gradual transition from one form of life to another. Please watch this video for an excellent demonstration of fossils transitioning from simple life to complex vertebrates. 3. Genetic commonalities. Human beings have approximately 96% of genes in common with chimpanzees, about 90% of genes in common with cats (source), 80% with cows (source), 75% with mice (source), and so on. This does not prove that we evolved from chimpanzees or cats, though, only that we shared a common ancestor in the past. And the amount of difference between our genomes corresponds to how long ago our genetic lines diverged. 4. Common traits in embryos. Humans, dogs, snakes, fish, monkeys, eels (and many more life forms) are all considered "chordates" because we belong to the phylum Chordata. One of the features of this phylum is that, as embryos, all these life forms have gill slits, tails, and specific anatomical structures involving the spine. For humans (and other non-fish) the gill slits reform into the bones of the ear and jaw at a later stage in development. But, initially, all chordate embryos strongly resemble each other. In fact, pig embryos are often dissected in biology classes because of how similar they look to human embryos. These common characteristics could only be possible if all members of the phylum Chordata descended from a common ancestor. 5. Bacterial resistance to antibiotics. Bacteria colonies can only build up a resistance to antibiotics through evolution. It is important to note that in every colony of bacteria, there are a tiny few individuals which are naturally resistant to certain antibiotics. This is because of the random nature of mutations. When an antibiotic is applied, the initial inoculation will kill most bacteria, leaving behind only those few cells which happen to have the mutations necessary to resist the antibiotics. In subsequent generations, the resistant bacteria reproduce, forming a new colony where every member is resistant to the antibiotic. This is natural selection in action. The antibiotic is "selecting" for organisms which are resistant, and killing any that are not. Links to sources can be found at the original link. Do me a favor and provide your basic sources for your claims and we can all then have access to discuss the basic credibility of our respective sources.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZPaul3 writes: Evidence for evolution (article) | Khan Academy Five Proofs of Evolution | Evolution FAQ
Evidence of Evolution - Species, Organisms, Evolutionary, and Similar
- JRank Articles
What Evidence Supports the Theory of Evolution? - dummies Darwin's Theory of Evolution: Definition & Evidence | Live Science dad writes: Not sure why you spam a bunch of links. Try posting a sentence or paragraph from a link and debate that, using a link only as a source we can check.By the way, I am aware of the created trait of being able to adapt and evolve, so evolution is not an issue at all. Where evolving started or stopped is an issue. The TOE has no clue what evolved from what, or when or why, and has piled error on false belief and baseless assumptions, while totally misunderstanding the fossil record, genetics and other basics. I would like you (dad) to spam a few links of your own. Lets get to the bottom of where we all get our information.
dad writes: Pretend I am an impressionable student. Say that I know your kids. Explain to me what you have studied and show me your sources.
Where evolving started or stopped is an issue.dad writes: I guess I dont understand this claim either. Can you more fully explain it to me? Show me a few bare links also. I am eager to learn. The TOE has no clue what evolved from what, or when or why, and has piled error on false belief and baseless assumptions, while totally misunderstanding the fossil record, genetics and other basics.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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