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Author | Topic: My Book On Evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Did you compose it here without prior rough drafts or did you actually spend a couple of years writing and revising it? I'm gonna take a few moments to be your critic, Mikey. Better me than someone who actually thinks Stephen Hawking was right!
MTW writes: For the record, what defines an "evolutionist"? Is there something in common that non-creationists believe?
So I am not trying to slaughter you personally for being evolutionist, I just wanted to give an effort to the "book" form, for want of a better word. This is all ultimately what I am convinced of at an intellectual person, from what I have learnt and figured out. MTW writes: What is "it"? Are you simply claiming the concept of evolution to be a monolithic world view? If so, be more specific on what a Mikey-professed "evolutionist" would believe to be true, based on their studies.
When we evaluate evolution as a claim, we have to evaluate WHAT it claims. MTW writes: I would like to see someone comment on whether or not they believe that humans are still evolving and what we predict we will ultimately become if in fact there is an endgame to it.
So the point I am making is that there seems to be stages that would have to exist which were not complete as designs even if they were viable according to evolution. So for example, if something is evolving from forelimbs which are legs with feet, into wings, or evolving into fins, the "fin" design would be incomplete, and the "wing" design would be incomplete, respectively, if they were heading in that direction evolutionarily. But of course, you have to prove there is a viable, "middle", it's not enough just to claim these things existed.MTW writes: Does not Creationism also state this, through Adam & Eve? Evolution depends on there existing a common ancestor Chapter 1 claims that there is no middle. Finally, (and as a bit of humor) is this book evolving, or is it being created? The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes:
I would like to see someone comment on whether or not they believe that humans are still evolving...ringo writes:
Of course we are. The only way to stop evolving is to become extinct.Phat writes:
... and what we predict we will ultimately become...ringo writes:
Indeed not. Perhaps the "book" that you call fiction can shed some light on an answer, or at the very least a most definite belief. If you ask Christian believers what they see as the future of humanity, they will consider the scriptures, unless they have been deluded by their own intellects.
Evolution can not be predicted.Gen 3:5 writes: . Granted we disagree as to the reasoning and meaning of Genesis. jar thinks it is simply human written "just-so" stories. Perhaps jar thinks that the entire Bible was written, edited, and imagined by humans. You do too, and likely think that it was intended to be fictional. in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." NKJVPhat writes:
... if in fact there is an endgame to it.ringo writes: And thus the worldview of many of our EvC members is that in which humans and humans alone are responsible for the world we create. After all, why even entertain the ideas in "Bronze Age Myths" when the evidence clearly shows that humans used religion and religious texts and authority to further their own supposed evolutionary development into being "as gods". Again, the only "end" is extinction. But even our extinction is not an end to the evolution of our descendants. Hey, I get it. I even understand why some of you think and believe that there is no "God" and that the very story of Jesus Christ may well have been a myth. You were taught this belief. It makes evidential sense to you. Nevermind talking snakes and getting swallowed by fish....we could chalk that stuff up as metaphorical, as well as a Great Flood. The central story of the Bible, as believed by many Christians today, is that humans were and are defiant, wise in our own eyes, dismissive of Jesus Christ (more so than any other religious figure in literature and mythos) and cautiously confidant of our own ability to make a brave new world...even today with the Covid-19 drama. What is the destiny of humanity?And yet this scientific belief known as evolution implies newness through time. Perhaps it implies that humans will either gain the wisdom to survive or will indeed go extinct. Surely we need to have a global consensus and plan. Surely we need to get along. Many of you would say that surely belief in God is going backward in this new age of progress. Tangle limits God to a character in a book and defies anyone to prove differently. He cannot prove that when a believer prays they don't actually have a communion with a Creator of all seen and unseen. But nevermind, it appears that around here objective evidence is necessary. Thankfully, so is freedom of speech. So I continue. Hey, Tangle, I get your logic. You claim that at one time you were a believer. It is said that adult belief in Jesus as a living prescence is much the same as a chjilds belief in Santa Claus. I believed both, and can only give my own opinion. Even as a child, though I held to a belief in Santa Claus, I knew at a very young age that he did not exist. I simply engaged in a psychological practice known as Suspension of Disbelief It was not the same with Jesus. Once I accepted Him into my heart, there was a most definite wholesale change in my feelings, perceptions, and awareness. Granted the stories are illogical from a rationally minded point of view. Personally, I think that Biblical Creationists pick the wrong intellectual battle to focus on. I personally believe that the Bible is metaphorically literal in thought for thought context and not word for word literal. I make my stand on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I see Him as God's character in human form....more than simply another great philosopher or thinker. I believe that when I pray to Him and commune with Him I am not simply inventing a comforting character in my own mind. I have felt the difference. I have encountered the Holy presence. Does that mean that I am loony? To believe that humans are capable of eventually describing more and more of what is seen as evidential is not as likely in my mind. (and heart) And it is through the heart that humanity will fail. We have no reason to deny the One who died for us. It's our own egos and reasoning that indeed seeks any answer except the religious one that defeats us in the end. There are many great scientists who are believers. Their belief does not interfere with their scientific methodology nor is there even a commonsense worldview that challenges them.
2 Peter 3:3-5 writes: I can fully understand many questions being raised.
First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. (...)1 Cor 1:18-22----------->For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. NKJV The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: You would have to ask Him, of course. This question does not keep me up at night, that's for sure. I ask that if god is capable of creating heaven where there is no suffering and death then why can't he do it here?And, indeed, why is here necessary? Not sure I understand this question. What do you mean "why is here necessary? " You mean the "experiment" that I suggest God may be conducting? The obvious answer is to build and develop human character in the face of ongoing adversity. And you get that but don't accept it---choosing instead to indict a hypothetical "God" should He support that strategy. And you can't get for the life of you why most believers don't share your accusations against such a god. I'm not sure that you understand what it is like to be a believer. It is not like Santa Claus. It is being internally and objectively certain that GOD exists through Jesus Christ and that Jesus is alive and present today. You claim that you willfully talked yourself out of "such bollocks" but I would believe this to be true evidence be damned. Once one has actually met somebody, one cannot deny the existence of such a person. But thats a discussion for another sermon. And before you scold me, I am quite clear that you claim to give my concept of God no more thought than you would Zeus. I get that. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: Yes, it's a Christian preoccupation and longing for persecution. Sadly for both you and Faith, it's not going to happen. What will happen is what is actually happening across the developed world is that extreme beliefs like yours will gradually just get diluted and fade out. They eventually become irrelevant. Do you think that I want to be persecuted? I'm a spoiled brat! Jesus did that work...why should I have to do it?? Oh, I know....scripture suggests that I too will be persecuted. I don't want any human to be persecuted for any reason, even if they do evil things. At best, I would want the demons that claim them to be wiped out, so you can use that statement to proclaim me certifiably nuts. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: There are a plethora of evidential claims regarding Biblical origins. As for reality, the reality is not what it seems. My basic question to you is how you can in good conscience steer Christians towards what *they* are responsible to do and to essentially dismiss God as simply evolving characters within human mythos. It's not a matter of what I believe rather it is a conclusion based on the Evidence and reality. Don't get me wrong, I see your "evidence" and have followed your arguments. I have asserted that you do not represent Christianity the way that it should in fact be represented, whereas you then counter that the Christianity that I attempt to follow and market is "an apologetic marketing fantasy". When I protest and challenge you on this point, you admittedly do present an intellectually persuasive argument that an unbeliever could follow as well as or better than a believer. You are true to your conclusions. I had to dig for the story of Virginia. I am still evaluating my ideas regarding your belief but I respect that you are honest. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: In which case I would argue that you never did. At best, you saw God as a kid sees Santa Claus. How many kids do you know that had a personal relationship with Santa Claus? I don't "believe that there is no God." I just don't have any belief that there is.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
So whats your first-hand observations about Jesus Freaks who actually had a personal relationship with Jesus? Did any of them have a peace about them? Did they help encourage others? Did they respect you enough to never actively try and convert you? Just curious.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I had blazing rows with them for months. Explains why you reject authority figures and chalk them up to human mythos. Perhaps God created you to be an arguer. Iron sharpens iron. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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