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Author Topic:   Censorship vs Public Safety
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4981
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(5)
Message 46 of 58 (875281)
04-20-2020 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Hyroglyphx
04-20-2020 3:51 PM


Re: Not wrong
... since she's so nearly universally despised.

We may despise her religious ideas or her spouting off from a lack of knowledge about … well … everything but the lady herself? No. She is not to be despised.

She is the crazy lady standing in the dark corner of the library visions of an intellect gone wrong mumbling almost inaudibly as she reads from the bible soon to burst forth her loud incantations against the devil and his science while smiling at the one small shaft of a sunbeam that manages to pierce the darkness and reach her toes.

She is our poor demented sister to be pitied, made fun of, scolded, ridiculed, scorned … but loved all the same. Never despised.


Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-20-2020 3:51 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 04-20-2020 8:17 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 51 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-20-2020 11:36 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4981
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 47 of 58 (875282)
04-20-2020 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by NosyNed
04-20-2020 6:51 PM


Re: Murky
Ned,

If this society can manage the spectacle of NAZIs marching through Skokie, Illinois, then one crazy person at EvC spouting stupid while continually lambasted for it in front of god and everybody is no threat to the democratic foundations of the nation.

A large part of the insidious nature of our present “fake news” culture (which has been a large part of humanity since forever) is the over-reaction to the “muddied waters” by not just censoring an overwhelming fire hose stream of propaganda but now to scrutinizing *every* idea before it is allowed to be expressed and censoring every idea the platform owner does not like.

Propaganda is a powerful poison when the Russians and the Republican reich-wing spew it everywhere to destabilize a society and it should be countered at every turn, even censored *when* it threatens to overwhelm a social platform and become the only voice to be heard.

But that is not the case here.

In the matter of EvC versus Faith we are dealing with an expression of stupid well challenged and has been exposed for what it is.

I understand Percy’s desire to not see *his* platform become a venue of harmful pseudo-science BS. But he has ventured into the public square in a democratic society and there is a more fundamental doctrine of our democracy to be served. Censorship is not it.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 5375
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(3)
Message 48 of 58 (875283)
04-20-2020 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by AZPaul3
04-20-2020 7:03 PM


Re: Not wrong
Can I suggest that she represents a fairly large group in the US that has combined their religious beliefs, which incorporates various forms of Biblical inerrancy, their sense of nationalism and rolled all that into their ultra right wing political views. By eliminating that voice we have eliminated virtually the only representative of that voice on this forum.

She actually does research on various topics. I agree that the research is limited to material that supports her point of view but she expresses those views well and and at least we can understand where she is coming from regardless of how much we might disagree with her views.

I realize that she can get testy at times but when you consider the amount of vitriolic verbiage thrown at her it becomes kind of understandable.

IMHO she is a good, well meaning individual that is subject to a lot of group-think and doesn't back down from promoting it. What she believes she believes passionately and I for one miss her around here.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2020 7:03 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5610
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 49 of 58 (875284)
04-20-2020 10:36 PM


Faith is why I still visit evcforum
I would have to say that Faith is my main reason for still reading this forum. Reading her posts and arguments gives me a window into the thinking of the crazy right.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6012
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 50 of 58 (875285)
04-20-2020 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by NosyNed
04-20-2020 6:51 PM


Re: Murky
However, maybe we have learned something from the Russians. It is not necessary to convince the masses of your point of view with propaganda. It is enough to muddy the waters so much that no one believes any source any more. This allows a response of "fake news" to anything you don't like hearing.

Yeah, they are master propagandists... almost every goal they have is to destabilize the West, create inner conflict, and watch the system crumble from within. That's been in their playbook for the last 50 years, but especially now, since its to let the West destroy itself than it is to launch a direct attack. Even if they 'won' the losses would be so monumental that you could barely distinguish between the difference between the victor and the loser.

It is this effect that has to be considered when balancing the value of free speech against the downsides of allowing anyone to say anything. It is not just the case of yelling fire in a confined space.

And who arbitrates such things? Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for dinner... That's more or less the problem. And my point still stands.... nobody on EvC takes Faith seriously enough to actually take her advice on anything. The closest thing might have been Buzsaw and, well, he is dearly departed. I just don't understand... this isn't a new revelation that Faith says dumb shit. Why is this the straw that breaks the camel's back?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6012
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 51 of 58 (875286)
04-20-2020 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by AZPaul3
04-20-2020 7:03 PM


Re: Not wrong
She is our poor demented sister to be pitied, made fun of, scolded, ridiculed, scorned … but loved all the same. Never despised.

Fair enough


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2020 7:03 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12687
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 52 of 58 (875289)
04-21-2020 10:28 AM


A Few More Words About Faith's Suspension
I'll add to a few words to my comments in Message 554.

This discussion board is more than 20 years old if you count its Yahoo predecessor. It has had the same goal from the very beginning: reasoned and informed discussion achieved through moderation. I understand that many wish Faith had not been indefinitely suspended, but she was by far the biggest offender of this board's underlying philosophy. When the subject became a matter of life and death the stakes became so high I could not permit her continued use of the board to disseminate potentially deadly misinformation.

Faith is indefinitely suspended, her IP address is blocked from accessing the website, and after she sent a couple emails to the admin account touting hydroychloroquine her email was also blocked.

Faith is not being censored. She can be contacted through email, she has her blog, and the entire rest of the Internet is open to her. Her preference for this website is only because its dark background is easy on her eyes.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 04-21-2020 1:38 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13937
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


(4)
Message 53 of 58 (875292)
04-21-2020 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Admin
04-21-2020 10:28 AM


Re: A Few More Words About Faith's Suspension
Percy, I fully understand your reasoning and why Faith was suspended for an indefinite amount of time. Perhaps it was not fair or democratic to many of our members, but let me add my 2 cents. We all know that Faith serves a useful niche here at EvC. She provides the perfect foil...the ideological opponent whom many of us need in order to debate and hone our own arguments against. Faith was our most prolific poster and her beliefs and opinions are in our archives uncensored and unchanged.

I am impressed that some of her most strident opponents actually care so much about her right to free speech. Surely they don't simply want her to be allowed to be here simply to show the world how wrong she is.

The fact that she is now prevented from adding to that is your call, and while some of us disagree with your reasoning, I hope that we all respect it. Quite frankly I see you as being a bit over the top in regards to COVID 19, but I also respect that and realize that your intentions are for the safety of yourself, your family, and your extended family and friends which includes us.

Speaking on behalf of many in the Forum we ask that you consider allowing Faith the opportunity to come back once this serious pandemic resolves itself.

Personally, I see that day as being a good 3 months, but I'm sure she will benefit from the break as well. I know that on some level you do care about her and that your suspension serves as a form of discipline to hopefully cause her to realize that everything she says does carry weight in some realm and in some capacity. This lesson is for all of us. Any one of us can be wrong in what we say.

She will likely never change--we all know that. Many of her arguments are downright ludicrous, but they provide a macabre form of entertainment for the rest of us, and even as we quibble endlessly with each other, we have adopted her as one of the community. Thanks for all you do to keep our forum safe. I hope and pray that we all make it through these trying times alive and well.

Edited by Phat, : better worded


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Admin, posted 04-21-2020 10:28 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-21-2020 2:36 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6012
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 54 of 58 (875294)
04-21-2020 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
04-21-2020 1:38 PM


Re: A Few More Words About Faith's Suspension
I am impressed that some of her most strident opponents actually care so much about her right to free speech.

Reminds me of EvC's infamous Night of Broken Glass where dozens of members were either given the ban hammer or fell on their own sword in protest. If I recall, I was the catalyst that set it ablaze. They were protesting that I should be banned on account of my homophobic beliefs. The irony is that I defended their right to express their desire to despise me and to have me banned.

To this day I still stand by the sentiment that most people misinterpreted what I was actually arguing, but nevertheless the fact that I was homophobic in those days was no mystery. A few people seemed to get my argument and defended me, such as Modulous, who himself is gay. I should say, he wasn't defending me per se rather he was merely explaining my position. He didn't agree with my position he was simply clarifying it.

Brenna, Dan Carrol, and a few others were snarky and belittled me every chance they got. I easily could have been met with glee when they were axed but I wasn't. Their right to freely protest me was more precious to me than getting rid of people who openly despised and mocked me.

Admin has a tough job and I don't envy it. On the one hand he is a promoter of free speech by hosting a forum. However, when the discourse devolves into shit-posting and lawless chaos, it detracts from civil discourse. I value free speech but I also agree that there are reasonable and appropriate limitations to it. Speech can never be free in absolute terms and the right to free speech does not protect you from the consequence of that speech.

EvC an apartment complex. We all live here but we have no stake in ownership. We signed up with the foreknowledge that there are forum guidelines and a continual flouting of those rules is met with enforcement action.

I obviously agree that in general Faith is wrong about almost everything that comes out of her mouth. I also agree that her recommendations were in fact dangerous and ill-advised. Where I disagree is that she has any meaningful impact on anyone at EvC that would actually take her advice. Maybe Buzsaw, but he's been dead for quite sometime.

We've seen Faith permanently banned several times always to eventually be given some reprieve. Don't know if this was the last one or if time heals all wounds.

Anyway, I'm not going to belabor this any further... I've expressed my views, Admin has expressed his. Ultimately he is the owner and reserves the right to deny service. It is what it is.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 04-21-2020 1:38 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Dogmafood, posted 04-21-2020 9:33 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Dogmafood
Member
Posts: 1814
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 55 of 58 (875306)
04-21-2020 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Hyroglyphx
04-21-2020 2:36 PM


Re: A Few More Words About Faith's Suspension
It is what it is.

It is what it is but it is not what it pretends to be.

Censorship is bull shit and fuck you to anyone who thinks they can decide what I should be exposed to.

Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-21-2020 2:36 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-22-2020 11:00 AM Dogmafood has not yet responded
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7627
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 56 of 58 (875309)
04-22-2020 3:09 AM


And then there were two. GDR and Phat.

American politics isn’t something I'm interested in discussing - but that's what this site pretty much does now.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6012
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 57 of 58 (875313)
04-22-2020 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Dogmafood
04-21-2020 9:33 PM


Re: A Few More Words About Faith's Suspension
Censorship is bull shit and fuck you to anyone who thinks they can decide what I should be exposed to.

I'm in agreement, but all I can do is try to use persuasion Message 44


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Dogmafood, posted 04-21-2020 9:33 PM Dogmafood has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13937
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 58 of 58 (875690)
05-03-2020 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Dogmafood
04-21-2020 9:33 PM


Re: A Few More Words About Faith's Suspension
Censorship is bull shit and fuck you to anyone who thinks they can decide what I should be exposed to.
You must like hanging out at the Dark Web a lot.

If I owned a website and had an ongoing row with a creationist who ignored scientific facts, I would likely continually encourage them to broaden their world view if not change their mind and would pin them to the wall every time they made a false assertion. If I myself were aware and cautious of the public health risks of a pandemic and if my ideological adversary touted unproven cures as alternative facts, I might decide to suspend them for a season in the interest of public safety. You can crow all you want about how you should never be censored from information, but if it were my forum and my call, I too would have a right. I might point you to the Dark Web, though.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Dogmafood, posted 04-21-2020 9:33 PM Dogmafood has not yet responded

  
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