Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,824 Year: 4,081/9,624 Month: 952/974 Week: 279/286 Day: 0/40 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Hitch is dead
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 395 of 560 (875749)
05-05-2020 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 393 by Phat
05-05-2020 3:46 AM


Re: Plenty to gain
quote:
Notice that your source attributes most of the books of the NT to Paul.
That particular article certainly doesn’t.
It attributes 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Romans and 1 Thessalonians to Paul. It cites Acts but implicitly attributes it to another author (asserting that Paul’s account should be preferred when Acts did not precisely agree with Galatians)
quote:
The mythicists deny this.
The mythicists I am aware of generally accept Paul’s authorship of the Epistles attributed to him by scholars. That includes all of the above - and more.
(The RationalWiki article cited by Tangle earlier also attributes these epistles to Paul - although it looks a bit grudging to me. So I don’t see any sign of trying to have it both ways any more than either article attributes a larger amount of the NT to Paul)
Edited by PaulK, : Added parenthetical comment about the RationalWiki article

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Phat, posted 05-05-2020 3:46 AM Phat has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 399 of 560 (875755)
05-05-2020 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by GDR
05-05-2020 12:00 PM


Re: Plenty to gain
quote:
The differences are in the timing and location
And in what happened. Nobody would forget that Jesus turned up in person to tell them not to go to Galilee and assume that they went after all. If it happened. And if that did not happen it was invented and it wasn’t corrected.
And that’s before we get into the stuff in Acts like Pentecost, which is tied into it.
quote:
All the accounts agree, like witnesses to a car accident, that the main event happened.
Reports of car accidents do NOT greatly disagree on where the accident occurred.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by GDR, posted 05-05-2020 12:00 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by GDR, posted 05-05-2020 12:52 PM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 401 of 560 (875757)
05-05-2020 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by GDR
05-05-2020 12:00 PM


Re: Plenty to gain
And this illustrates another point - which I’ll get to.
If the feeding of the five thousand was a fiction, not many people would be in a position to know that. They would have to know pretty much all Jesus’ career - with no gaps - to say that it never happened.
The vast majority of those would be in Judaea where Mark might not even have reached before the Jewish revolt began in 66 AD - and I can’t think that refuting the claims of a minor sect would have been much of a priority then.
Even then the vast majority would be Jewish, and likely adherents of the Pharisees - and the Church was already hostile to them
But there is an even greater problem - how do you prove it didn’t happen? Someone could say that they saw everything and they didn’t see that, but would they be believed.
And finally - to the point - there are people who will invent the flimsiest of excuses to reject claims they don’t like. As has just been proven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by GDR, posted 05-05-2020 12:00 PM GDR has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 404 of 560 (875764)
05-05-2020 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by GDR
05-05-2020 12:52 PM


Re: Plenty to gain
quote:
Nobody disagreed about where the crucifixion occurred.
So why are they disagreeing on where the post-resurrection appearances happened? Again, if Jesus turned up on the road to Emmaus and told the disciples not to go to Galilee, how could the author of Matthew not know about it?
quote:
Different disciples and others had different experiences of the risen Jesus.
That obviously doesn’t account for the differences, especially when they are all supposed to be present for most of the appearance
stories.
quote:
However, like in a car accident where all agree that the accident happened, they all agreed that Jesus had been resurrected after being crucified.
As I said, believers will spout obvious nonsense to try and protect their beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by GDR, posted 05-05-2020 12:52 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by Phat, posted 05-05-2020 1:33 PM PaulK has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 426 of 560 (875847)
05-08-2020 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 425 by GDR
05-07-2020 7:18 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
quote:
As far as I am concerned the evidence for the resurrection is substantial
And you’ve worked hard at deceiving yourself into thinking that. But until you can explain why the author of Matthew thought that the Disciples went to Galilee and saw Jesus there - while the author of Luke insists that they changed their minds and stayed in Jerusalem - because Jesus showed up in person and told them to, your position is considerably weakened. Making the obviously daft claim that it’s like a car accident (unless you mean a car accident when the driver and passengers are so high in drugs they don’t have a clue where they are and what’s really going on) doesn’t cut it with any reasonable person. In a car accident there would at least be broad agreement on where it happened and I don’t see how the first meeting with the resurrected Jesus should get forgotten - so that it only appears in Luke.
quote:
There is IMHO no other plausible explanation for the rise of Christianity and the form it took.
Well there are but you don’t like them. And the problems with the Gospel stories at least indicate that the actual post-resurrection events weren’t that memorable.
quote:
The basic argument against it is that we know that it can't happen.
And there’s the usual strawman. But I suppose you can’t admit to better arguments because you can’t admit to the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by GDR, posted 05-07-2020 7:18 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by jar, posted 05-08-2020 10:02 AM PaulK has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 437 of 560 (875903)
05-09-2020 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 436 by GDR
05-09-2020 11:15 AM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
quote:
I can't comprehend the belief that life ultimately has only mindless origins. I can't muster up that kind of faith.
Yet you have the faith to believe that accounts of car accidents are routinely confused about the location - by about a 100 miles.
Of course it isn’t about faith. That’s why you have no sensible objection to the idea. That’s just the sort of inversion Faith so loves.
Edited by PaulK, : Clarified last sentence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 11:15 AM GDR has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 516 of 560 (876312)
05-17-2020 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 514 by Phat
05-16-2020 3:00 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
quote:
Wake up and smell the coffee!
Watch the news. Listen to some of the plans being discussed to track humanity via smartphone technology. Figure out that money will likely crash soon
I’m probably more aware of what’s actually going on in smartphone tracking than you are. Are you aware of the efforts that Apple and Google are making to preserve privacy in their Covid-19 contact-tracking application ?
And why would money crash? Global economies are taking a hit, but there are upsides to it, and we can’t tell what the new equilibrium will be like yet.
quote:
And look into things like biomarkers genetically engineered into vaccines. Explain why the army is administering the vaccines and why they may become mandatory.
The former is almost certainly anti-vaccine paranoia - scientific discussion of biomarkers seems more concerned with natural biomarkers for viruses and immunity.
The army might be used to administer vaccines when you need people to administer large numbers of vaccination. More people, more medics and the organisation to get it done.
Vaccines may become mandatory because of the anti-vaccination movement and the outbreaks that result from their success in discouraging vaccination.
Perhaps you should wake up and realise that paranoid loons are not reliable sources.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 05-16-2020 3:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 533 of 560 (877143)
06-05-2020 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 530 by Phat
06-05-2020 12:57 PM


Re: In The Beginning? Certainly Not Chemicals
quote:
No, but the idea that in the beginning was chemicals is just plain silly.
Indeed, quite a lot had to happen before chemicals could exist.
But the idea that a mind was the origin of all is not particularly sensible. Indeed, the existence of such a mind cries out for explanation - and there is none.
Edited by PaulK, : a correction and a clarification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by Phat, posted 06-05-2020 12:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024