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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: I did agree to use your contention that the Good Samaritan is fiction and went with that.
I think I've already answered that. It's fiction, like the talking snake or the resurrection. The Good Samaritan, however, is plausible where the other two are not - and its message is true. ringo writes: By your definition I agree that the snake story is fiction, (as in a metaphor) however I obviously disagree that the resurrection is fiction.
I think I've already answered that. It's fiction, like the talking snake or the resurrection. The Good Samaritan, however, is plausible where the other two are not - and its message is true. ringo writes: You are right that I don't like them but I have reason to reject them. Firstly once again, the Bible isn't simply one book and each book can and should be understood on their own merits. That's the weakest part of your case. You've sanitized the parts you don't like for no other reason than that you don't like them. I start with the belief that God's nature can be seen perfectly embodied by Jesus. So when I look at the accounts of God ordering genocide and public stoning I can see that it is consistently at odds with what we see in the teachings of Jesus, therefore I reject them. People like Bart Ehrman rejected their Christian faith on the grounds that he found that the suffering in the world is inconsistent with a loving god. I have considerable sympathy with that POV however I remain a Christian as I still believe that God has given us the will and the ability to mitigate much of the world's suffering, and that is what we are all called to. I also believe that this life isn't the end and that there is better to come. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: There are many things about that article that I concur with. BTW, I reads and listen to a number of scholars who would agree with Carrier. In the last few days I've listened to and read a considerable amount of what Bart Ehrman has to say. If you can bear it, this is the more objective version of events described in your book. You'll probably find yourself rebelling against it, but do try. I agree that it all is ultimately about belief, however I don't agree that it is unevidenced belief, but I do agree that it isn't conclusive. I don't have a problem agreeing to the point that many of the events around the resurrection don't line up in the Gospels. Even Ehrman agreed that the authors believed in what they wrote, which is not to say they got it right. I realize that there are theories of how Christian belief began without the resurrection being historical. In the end, IMHO, the only truly plausible reason for the rise of Christian belief is "belief" that God bodily raised Jesus into a new or renewed form of physicality. They may have been wrong in their beliefs, but it is hard to conceive of how they could have gotten a major event like that wrong. The specifics of events before and after the crucifixion were written by fallible humans and as a result they won't line up perfectly. That just isn't a problem for me. My Christian beliefs flow from the idea that God is good, that mankind is called to do all that we can to alleviate suffering and that God resurrected Jesus confirming that we can understand God's nature by looking at what we know of the man Jesus. Everything else I believe about my faith flows from that.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Frankly, it is just as baffling to me that there are those like yourself that are materialists. I can't comprehend the belief that life ultimately has only mindless origins. I can't muster up that kind of faith. And for the life of me I can't understand how you can believe all that given the utter craziness and total implausibility of the idea. It's baffling.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Tangle writes: Not believing in materialism is NOT a belief in something else; it is just a non-belief in materialsim. Maybe there isn't a god, who knows?
Not believing in god is NOT a belief in something else; it's just a non-belief in god. End. Maybe there is a god, who knows? Tangle writes: We both accept materialism or naturalism or whatever you want to call it because it's not a belief, it's evidenced facts. How far back we can take it is just a matter for how far science can go. We've only just started. Here is the definition for materialism. quote: It isn't a matter of how far back you go. The doctrine, (and all doctrine requires belief), is that there is only matter.
Tangle writes: My position on *your* god is not the same as on *a* god. What I'm exasperated about is that we have a stack of actual evidence that tells us that the story you believe is just hokum. Yet you swallow it whole knowing how impossibly unlikely it is to be true. Just by reading your book it shows how questionable it all is. Any reasonable person would treat the entire thing with utmost scepticism. I was simply arguing for a theistic position, and yes my personal beliefs extend to Christianity. Yes, there are discrepancies in the detail of the NT accounts but just as you contend that the resurrection is impossibly unlikely to be true I contend that the rise of Christian belief is highly unlikely to be true if the resurrection isn't historical truth. However, in the post you responded to I only was talking about materialism as opposed to theism.
Tangle writes: IMHO the materialist position is irrational. My postion on your god is rational; yours is irrational. The two positions are not equivalent.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Tangle writes: OK then we have reached one point of agreement. Yeh!!
I'm going to agree with you here - not just for the sake of argument but because it's true. Anything accepted by belief is irrational and as it can't be totally ruled out, regardless of how improbable, it's simply not possible to say that ALL there is is material. Tangle writes: That is not a rational comparison. There is no evidence for leprechauns but there is evidence for at least a deistic god. The fact that life exists at all is evidence for at least a deistic god. Of course I'd go further and say that the fact that there is not only life, but sentient life is strong evidence for at least a deistic god. ..... but just as we can't disprove leprechauns we can't disprove a deistic god. If we take that evidence and conclude that we are created by the intelligence of that deistic god then we are in a position to consider a theistic god. If we are the result of intelligence then it seems reasonable to consider that our intelligence is somehow an extension of the original intelligence that is responsible for life. When we as humans create something with intention we do so with a purpose in mind. By extension then I suggest that it is reasonable to conclude that we were created for a purpose. That being the case then the idea that a deistic god who created us and then ignored us isn't as reasonable as a belief theistic god who created us and is still involved with what he/she has created. I have now IMHO given a rational reason to believe in a theistic god. I'm not saying that it is conclusive but only that it is reasonable. As you know I go a step further though. If then, we have an intelligent theistic god that has created life with a purpose then I don't see it as a stretch to accept the concept of resurrection into a new and renewed form of existence. The resurrection if nothing else is evidence that Jesus' life based on unconditional love, is evidence of the life that we are called to. Also the resurrection is evidence that the purpose for our lives extends beyond the life that we know. What that life will be like is essentially a mystery but it appears that unconditional love will be a basic ingredient of it.
Tangle writes: If the heart and mind of God is interwoven with our consciousness then it is simply part of our being and would be invisible to us. if there was a god intervening in our lives we'd know about it.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
kjsimons writes: Life exists and there has to be an underlying cause, whether it is by chance through mindless processes or intelligence. As we are sentient beings then I contend that the reason that life exists is more likely to be intelligent than mindless. Life itself is evidence from which we draw subjective conclusions. How is this evidence for a god at all? Please explain as it is not obvious to me that this would be evidence of a god existing.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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DrJones writes: Fair enough, but that just means that god is a leprechaun. Nope, Leprechauns created life.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle, you call yourself an atheist. I'm looking at trying to understandhow you differentiate between atheism and materialism.
Here is the definition for atheism. quote:We already looked at this definition of materialsim. quote: If there are no gods then what else is there besides matter. Aren't the two terms synonymous. It is fair to say that as an atheist you don't believe in any god that is part of any particular religion. But then if you hold to that distinction it would mean that an atheist is one who believes in an unknown god. You say that we can't know one way or the other, so shouldn't you be classified as agnostic as opposed to atheistic?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
LamarkNewAge writes: Understand the time difference between Polycarp and Irenaeus .The former died 107 to 108 or 115 to 117. Polycarp was executed by the Romans in 155AD at age 86.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: How would you define the gods that you don't believe in? it just means I don't believe in godsHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: I guess that I am trying to distinguish your understanding of atheism from my understanding of agnosticism. How would you define all the gods you don't believe in? Do you think it necessary? I think that you have said that you can't reject the possibility that there is an intelligent creator of life, but that you don't believe it to be the case. So on one hand you don't believe in a creative intelligence of any description making you a materialist/atheist, but then you say that you can't reject the idea that such an entity exists making you agnostic. I guess I'm asking - which is it?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
here is an excerpt from a writing of Eusebius. Also. Papias was a contemporay of Polycarb and interacted with John.
quote: He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
LMA writes: Back to Papias, and your statement that he knew John. What do you have here to show us. quote: He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
kjsimons writes: I guess inquiring minds want to know. Why do we exist? Are we the result of nothing but mindless processes or are the processes the result of a pre-existing intelligence? That life exists is just evidence that life exists, no more, no less. You seem to need to have there be a underlying cause for life's existence, that is on you and not an actual requirement.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: I have often said to Faith, (I hope she gets allowed back), is that it is Christianity not Bibleianity. My faith is based on Jesus although much of what I understand about Jesus is from a Bible compiled by hundreds of fallible human beings over hundreds of years. You're thinking backwards, from the conclusion you want. The Bible tells you that Jesus is good and God can often be cruel. Therefore, Jesus is clearly not the perfect embodiment of God. My views of the nature of God is that in humans, and even in other creatures, we see a basic tug on our consciousness where we understand that we really should love others as we love ourselves even though we usually succumb to being primarily concerned with number one. This is consistent with Jesus saying the theme of the whole NT that all of the laws hang on the premise of self giving love. So. like I said earlier when the Bible says that God committed and commanded genocide, I don't necessarily disagree with the historicity of the event, but I do disagree with the idea that it was divinely ordered or committed. Succinctly, I don't start with the Bible, I start with Jesus when I want to understand the nature of God, so I contend that I don't have it backwards.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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