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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2332 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Understand the time difference between Polycarp and Irenaeus .
The former died 107 to 108 or 115 to 117. The later wrote around 200. The many claims about Polycarp came from Irenaeus. Not a very early source. And Irenaeus wrote in France. Modern day what is France, that is. CORRECTION. He wrote his extant, authentic Epistles during the time of Ignatius and writings. 107 to 108 or 115 to 117. But he lived to 156. Neither Ignatius nor Polycarp wrote a thing about knowing John. Irenaeus made it up. Irenaeus was almost an institution in and of himself. Possibly the dad of modern Christianity. The bastardization of all Christians might be due to the one man from France. The religion does not follow John or Jesus. It follows Father Irenaeus. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle, you call yourself an atheist. I'm looking at trying to understandhow you differentiate between atheism and materialism.
Here is the definition for atheism. quote:We already looked at this definition of materialsim. quote: If there are no gods then what else is there besides matter. Aren't the two terms synonymous. It is fair to say that as an atheist you don't believe in any god that is part of any particular religion. But then if you hold to that distinction it would mean that an atheist is one who believes in an unknown god. You say that we can't know one way or the other, so shouldn't you be classified as agnostic as opposed to atheistic?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
LamarkNewAge writes: Understand the time difference between Polycarp and Irenaeus .The former died 107 to 108 or 115 to 117. Polycarp was executed by the Romans in 155AD at age 86.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Tangle, you call yourself an atheist. I'm looking at trying to understandhow you differentiate between atheism and materialism. I don't. The two things are totally different. Not believing in gods doesn't mean I default to something else, it just means I don't believe in gods. That's it. I know what it's not, I have no idea what it is. Personally I doubt we'll ever know and don't see why we ever should, but the effort in trying to work it out is worth it because at least we work out what it's not. And what is obviously is not is theistic. There really isn't any point making word and logic boxes to put things into so that things can be all neat and tidy - you don't think it's this so it must be that; real reality doesn't work like that, it's far more complicated than we are capable of imagining. And no, just because we can't understand doesn't mean you can stick a god in there to save us the trouble. Gods explains nothing but our ignorance.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: How would you define the gods that you don't believe in? it just means I don't believe in godsHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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GDR writes: How would you define the gods that you don't believe in? How would you define all the gods you don't believe in? Do you think it necessary?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2332 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
But where did Polycarp indicate any relationship with John. He wrote 2 epistles that we still have today. Ignatius wrote him a letter. Ignatius died no later than 117.
Irenaeus was fond of saying he had title deeds straight from the Apostles. Clement of Rome and Ignatius claimed that the 100 AD bishops were appointed by the Apostles, but there was never any meat or stories behind the brief claims.Very brief claims. Irenaeus was a great player but his stories lacked any kind of details that cause us to take seriously. No evidence that Ignatius or Polycarp could understand Aramaic or Hebrew. No evidence of any documents from John or any Apostle. No storyline details. Again, Polycarp never has been shown to know of John's Gospel that Irenaeus presents as John's Gospel. Polycarp is somebody who did not claim to have known John, in any actual document that exists in fragments, quotes, or in entirety. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: I guess that I am trying to distinguish your understanding of atheism from my understanding of agnosticism. How would you define all the gods you don't believe in? Do you think it necessary? I think that you have said that you can't reject the possibility that there is an intelligent creator of life, but that you don't believe it to be the case. So on one hand you don't believe in a creative intelligence of any description making you a materialist/atheist, but then you say that you can't reject the idea that such an entity exists making you agnostic. I guess I'm asking - which is it?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
here is an excerpt from a writing of Eusebius. Also. Papias was a contemporay of Polycarb and interacted with John.
quote: He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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GDR writes: I guess that I am trying to distinguish your understanding of atheism from my understanding of agnosticism. I've tried to explain that there's no such thing as agnosticism - you either believe in something or you don't. If you don't know whether you believe in something or not, you obviously don't believe do you? You know you believe don't you? That’s what it is to believe.
I think that you have said that you can't reject the possibility that there is an intelligent creator of life, I can't, and nobody can or ever will. That's the nature of rationality - that kind of negative can't be disproven.
but that you don't believe it to be the case. I do not believe that any god exists, no. That very last jump from understanding that a deistic god - note deistic god - can't be disproven to not believing that one does exist is not rational - it's a belief. But one founded on we we actually know. Call it a conclusion.
So on one hand you don't believe in a creative intelligence of any description making you a materialist/atheist, but then you say that you can't reject the idea that such an entity exists making you agnostic. Not being stupid enough to understand that a deistic god can't be disproven does not make me an agnostic. There is an enormous gulf between knowledge and belief.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2332 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Papias did not show knowledge of the Gospel of John.
So what were there notes that Irenaeus jotted down during his interaction with Polycarp. I don't see any body of notes about Polycarp and his supposed interactions with John. Where are they. What are they about. Back to Papias, and your statement that he knew John. What do you have here to show us.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2332 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I will quote form P. N. Harrison's book, Polycarps Two Epistles To The Philippians.
P.285 Polycarp must hff have been familiar with all or most of the following A The Synoptic Gospels and Acts Lightfoot, as we have seen, recognized six definite quotations from Matthew, two from Mark, three from Luke, and two from Acts, in addition to two resemblances to Matthew and four to Acts. P. 294 to 295 ...Polycarps collection of Paulines... shows clear signs of acquaintance with the Pastoral Epistles P. 296 E The Catholic Epistles With the exception of 2 Peter, Polycarp shows possible affinities with all or most of the Catholic Epistles P. 302 Reference has already been made in Chapter XVIII to the negative fact that our Epistle affords no sign that Polycarp had ever read, or heard of, the Fourth Gospel. END QUOTES. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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kjsimons Member Posts: 822 From: Orlando,FL Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Bump
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
LMA writes: Back to Papias, and your statement that he knew John. What do you have here to show us. quote: He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
kjsimons writes: I guess inquiring minds want to know. Why do we exist? Are we the result of nothing but mindless processes or are the processes the result of a pre-existing intelligence? That life exists is just evidence that life exists, no more, no less. You seem to need to have there be a underlying cause for life's existence, that is on you and not an actual requirement.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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