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Author Topic:   Hitch is dead
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 421 of 560 (875831)
05-07-2020 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by GDR
05-07-2020 3:16 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
Moby Dick was written as fiction. That was the authors intent.
But you know little or nothing about the Bible authors' intent. You may know what Irenaeus, Polycarp, etc. believed the authors intended but that's no different than knowing what Tolkien believed about elves.
Edited by ringo, : No reason given.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by GDR, posted 05-07-2020 3:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by GDR, posted 05-07-2020 4:09 PM ringo has replied
 Message 451 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-09-2020 4:34 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 423 of 560 (875837)
05-07-2020 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by GDR
05-07-2020 4:09 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
You can't have eye witnesses to a fictitious event.
You can have fictional eyewitnesses to a fictional event, cited in a fictional account of a fictional event.
You can't use the Bible as evidence that the Bible is true.
GDR writes:
Also it isn't as if this Gospel is written in isolation. There are the other Gospels, (this was probably the last one), in circulation as well as the Epistles.
There are other stories about James Bond besides the ones written by Ian Fleming. They don't make James Bond more real.
GDR writes:
Also people don't build social constructs around fictitious writings.
Sure they do. May the Fourth be with you (Star Wars), Dungeons and Dragons, etc.
GDR writes:
Also this is written a thousand years prior to that type of fiction being written.
That's like saying the Wright Brothers didn't have an airplane because it was years before anybody else had one.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by GDR, posted 05-07-2020 4:09 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by GDR, posted 05-07-2020 7:18 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 428 of 560 (875861)
05-08-2020 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 425 by GDR
05-07-2020 7:18 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
In the first place you can as the Bible isn't simply one book.
For our purposes here, it is one book. It is one canon, chosen by a group of people as "true". You can expect some agreement among its parts.
GDR writes:
As far as I am concerned the evidence for the resurrection is substantial.
We're not discussing specifically whether or not the resurrection was real. My objection is to your claim that the Bible stories were "obviously" intended to be understood as real. There is nothing obvious about it. You have admitted yourself that the Bible does contain fiction, which is a direct contradiction of your original claim.
And you could not have picked a worse example anyway. We do not see stories about resurrections in the news.
GDR writes:
A lot depends on one's starting point of theism or materialiam.
My starting point was theism.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by GDR, posted 05-07-2020 7:18 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by GDR, posted 05-08-2020 3:57 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 430 of 560 (875876)
05-08-2020 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 429 by GDR
05-08-2020 3:57 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
Is the story of the "Good Samaritan" true?
I think I've already answered that. It's fiction, like the talking snake or the resurrection. The Good Samaritan, however, is plausible where the other two are not - and its message is true.
GDR writes:
There are many parts of the Bible that I don't believe are true such as the case of God either commanding or committing genocide or public stoning.
That's the weakest part of your case. You've sanitized the parts you don't like for no other reason than that you don't like them.
GDR writes:
When I claimed that the Bible didn't contain fiction I was using the definition that in order for it to be fiction, it had to be intended to be understood as neither literally true or as a parable.
That doesn't wash. You know nothing of the authors' intentions.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by GDR, posted 05-08-2020 3:57 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by GDR, posted 05-08-2020 4:55 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 466 of 560 (875952)
05-10-2020 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by GDR
05-08-2020 4:55 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
I start with the belief that God's nature can be seen perfectly embodied by Jesus. So when I look at the accounts of God ordering genocide and public stoning I can see that it is consistently at odds with what we see in the teachings of Jesus, therefore I reject them.
You're thinking backwards, from the conclusion you want. The Bible tells you that Jesus is good and God can often be cruel. Therefore, Jesus is clearly not the perfect embodiment of God.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by GDR, posted 05-08-2020 4:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by GDR, posted 05-10-2020 1:49 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 467 of 560 (875954)
05-10-2020 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by LamarkNewAge
05-09-2020 4:34 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
LamarkNewAge writes:
Understand the time difference between Polycarp and Irenaeus .
No need to. I don't take either one of them seriously.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-09-2020 4:34 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 469 of 560 (875956)
05-10-2020 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by GDR
05-10-2020 1:49 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
I have often said to Faith, (I hope she gets allowed back), is that it is Christianity not Bibleianity. My faith is based on Jesus....
I have more respect for Faith's version than I do for your made-up version. You and Phat clearly want a cutesy teddy bear of a God. You have no interest in the "God that is" (if there is one). You don't accept God as He is (if He is). You create Him in the image you want to see.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by GDR, posted 05-10-2020 1:49 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 05-10-2020 2:55 PM ringo has replied
 Message 471 by GDR, posted 05-10-2020 4:56 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 472 of 560 (875999)
05-11-2020 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by GDR
05-10-2020 4:56 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
First off, it isn't made up. It is consistent with middle of the road Anglicanism...
That doesn't preclude it from being made up. Middle-of-the-road Mormonism is made up, isn't it?
GDR writes:
... and for that matter it is Biblical if you don't try and turn the Bible into something essentially dictated by God.
In other words, it's Biblical if you make up your own Bible, ignoring the parts of the actual Bible that you don't like.
GDR writes:
It seems that you insist that God has to be a genocidal tyrant.
I'm just going by YOUR source, which says He is.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by GDR, posted 05-10-2020 4:56 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by GDR, posted 05-11-2020 4:06 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 473 of 560 (876000)
05-11-2020 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Phat
05-10-2020 2:55 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:
I prefer a relationship (or at least an open line) to the God W\ho Is.
But you make up a cute and cuddly one.
Why would the creator of all things seen and unseen have any interest in you? Even much lesser beings such as your President or your Governor or your Mayor have no interest in a relationship with you. The desire for relationship is strictly one-sided.
Phat writes:
I don't limit Him to some ancient despot described in a book, either.
You make Him up instead.
Phat writes:
I can't deny what I have experienced (without questioning my sanity) and I have even gone so far as to do that.
That isn't going very far at all. Questioning your own experiences, your own observations and your own conclusions is only step one. You need to be a lot harder on yourself than that.
Phat writes:
The belief that I have that will annoy people the most is that not only is Jesus necessary for life, empathy, and love to even exist but that He will judge the humanists for professing themselves to be wise when they are, in fact off the mark.
That isn't annoying. It's laughable. It's hubris.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 05-10-2020 2:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 493 of 560 (876119)
05-12-2020 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by GDR
05-11-2020 4:06 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
You want it both ways. You want to disparage Faith for a inerrant view of Scripture and then at the same time disparage my belief in a Bible written by imperfect humans.
Not at all. I disparage Faith for having a view of scripture that directly contradicts scripture. I disparage you for having a made-up view of God that ignores most of scripture. Neither of you sees scripture for what it is.
GDR writes:
There are 66 books in the Bible from hundreds of sources over hundreds of years, and you want to insist that I give them all equal credibility.
Pretty much. You have no rationale for your cherry-picking except what you want to hear.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by GDR, posted 05-11-2020 4:06 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 8:22 PM ringo has replied
 Message 498 by Phat, posted 05-13-2020 11:04 AM ringo has replied
 Message 535 by Phat, posted 06-05-2020 4:47 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 501 of 560 (876201)
05-14-2020 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 496 by GDR
05-12-2020 8:22 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
How about you tell us how you see the Scripture as it really is.
I see the Bible as 66 books - give or take, depending on the canon. The God depicted in the New Testament is not more accurate than the God depicted in the Old Testament. The alien overlord, if it exists, may or may not resemble any of the gods depicted in the Bible. There is certainly no valid rationale for choosing one personality over another.
GDR writes:
Jesus Himself refutes much of OT teaching.
And yet He said Himself that that was exactly not what He was doing.
GDR writes:
Frankly, sometimes my understanding of Jesus has been exactly what I don't want to hear.
I don't buy that.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 8:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 506 by GDR, posted 05-14-2020 5:37 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 502 of 560 (876203)
05-14-2020 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 498 by Phat
05-13-2020 11:04 AM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:
Put up or shut up.
Been there. Done that.
Now YOU get down off your arrogant high-horse and give us a valid rationale for choosing the cute-and-cuddly God of the New Testament over the war criminal of the Old Testament.
And then you can give us a valid rationale for throwing out most of the New Testament too.
Phat writes:
Enlighten us. What *is* it? Your answer will show your true colors.
As I have said many times: it is what it is; it says what it says. Why are you still in the dark about that?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by Phat, posted 05-13-2020 11:04 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 508 by Phat, posted 05-15-2020 2:27 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 507 of 560 (876249)
05-15-2020 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 506 by GDR
05-14-2020 5:37 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
The idea that we should love one another goes back to Leviticus.
The idea that we should love one another goes back to the Olduvai Gorge - and before that.
GDR writes:
Then we have the books where various prophets tell their leaders that God is ordering them to commit ovarious atrocities including genocide.
You conveniently ignore the occasions when God committed atrocities all on His own - the Flood, for example.
Phat writes:
The OT is full of accounts about false prophets.
And usually pretty clear about pointing out which ones were false. There's no indication that the ones advocating atrocities were false.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by GDR, posted 05-14-2020 5:37 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by GDR, posted 05-15-2020 6:08 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 509 of 560 (876254)
05-15-2020 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 508 by Phat
05-15-2020 2:27 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:
What do you mean by rational?
Rationale.
A set of reasons. A logical basis.
Phat writes:
Last night I was at church and literally felt the presence of the Holy Spirit.
No. You felt "something" that you interpreted in the way you have been taught to interpret things. That's figurative, not literal.
Phat writes:
God is not simply a character in the book.
That's an empty statement and unconnected to anything else in your post.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Phat, posted 05-15-2020 2:27 PM Phat has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 512 of 560 (876283)
05-16-2020 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 510 by GDR
05-15-2020 6:08 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:
Do I have to go through all of the egregious commands in the OT every time it comes up.
Yes, every time you make an egregious excuse like "false prophets" you're going to be called on it.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by GDR, posted 05-15-2020 6:08 PM GDR has not replied

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