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Author Topic:   NvC-2: Information is independent of matter
Richard L. Wang
Member
Posts: 104
From: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Joined: 04-27-2020


Message 1 of 8 (875922)
05-09-2020 4:27 PM


From NvC-1-32, the key now is whether “Information either supervenes upon the physical or can be reduced to a physical account”? Here, information represents all “Non-physical or quasi-physical substance, such as information, ideas, values, logic, mathematics, intellect, and other emergent phenomena.” How do biological processes describe ideas, values, logic? We know very little. Therefore, from now on, in our discussion, I will limit “information” to the information consisting of a sequence of symbols, and it is enough to reach conclusions. Genetic information in biological cells and text, image, sound and other information in cellphones are such information.

This topic is the core of our discussion. In Darwin’s time, it is understandable for people to think that life consists only of matter. However, in today’s information ege, do you still think this is a correct conclusion?

Open your mind. Look at your cellphone. It consists of hardware(matter) and software(information). Hardware and software are made by EE scientists / engineers and computer-science scientists / engineers, respectively, using different rules and different tools. Does cellphone consist only of hardware? and do only the natural laws operate in cellphone?

Open your mind. When we write our posts for this discussion, there are bioinformatic processes in our brain. Do only the natural laws operate when we think and write our posts?


Richard L. Wang
Member
Posts: 104
From: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Joined: 04-27-2020


Message 2 of 8 (875947)
05-10-2020 12:39 PM


Matter obeys the natural laws, information does not
When Shakespeare wanted to tell people a store of Hamlet, he wrote down his sentences on the paper with a pen dipped in ink. When people want to read Hamlet, they buy Hamlet, a book printed on paper or an eBook on an electronic device.

So here are two things: information – the store of Hamlet - and information-carrier – paper, electronic device, and so on. Information itself, or the meaning contained in information, is an unphysical subject, and information-carrier is a physical subject. Information needs matter as its carrier, and information can only be stored and transmitted by information-carrier.

Matter, including information-carrier, obeys the natural laws.

On the other hand, information, as an unphysical subject, has no weight, no volume, no smell, no color. Can anyone tell me how much weight or how big the store of Hamlet is? no one. Therefore, information is not a physical quantity and cannot appear in the natural laws.

The natural laws are equivalent to the laws of physics, and vice versa. What do the laws of physics do? Two things –
- Define the interaction between matters, and
- Determine the structure, nature and behavior of matters.
The natural laws, or the laws of physics, deal only with matter and have nothing to do with information.

Information does not obey the natural laws. This is the fundamental reason why DN is completely wrong and the theoretical foundation of my creationism.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Admin, posted 05-11-2020 10:23 AM Richard L. Wang has responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12705
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 3 of 8 (875997)
05-11-2020 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Richard L. Wang
05-10-2020 12:39 PM


Re: Matter obeys the natural laws, information does not
Richard L. Wang writes:

This is the fundamental reason why DN is completely wrong and the theoretical foundation of my creationism.

Is this thread supposed to be about information and matter, or about DN (I forget what that is, you should describe it again)?


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-10-2020 12:39 PM Richard L. Wang has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-11-2020 4:28 PM Admin has not yet responded

Richard L. Wang
Member
Posts: 104
From: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Joined: 04-27-2020


Message 4 of 8 (876007)
05-11-2020 4:08 PM


Sorry for the confusion which I caused
GDR & PaulK, maybe you are right. I should introduce my creationism, otherwise your guys may not know why I raised this or that topic.

I’ll stop using DN, which has caused RAZD(NvC-1-59) and Percy(NvC-2-3) to feel confused about what this means.


Richard L. Wang
Member
Posts: 104
From: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Joined: 04-27-2020


Message 5 of 8 (876009)
05-11-2020 4:13 PM


A brief of my creationism
Information is independent of matter -
- Information, as an immaterial subject, cannot appear in the natural laws, or in other words, the natural laws deal only with matter and have nothing to do with information;
- Information does not obey the natural laws. Information follows its own rules, for example, language follows its vocabulary and grammar;
- Information cannot be generated by matter.

For biology, “Information is independent of matter” leads to –
- Life consists of matter and information;
- matter cannot produce genetic information;
- All bioinformatic processes don’t follow the natural laws.

On the origin of life on Earth
- Because the following three factors – the first life on Earth must contain genetic information, matter cannot produce genetic information, and the primitive Earth was a matter-only world before the origin of life -, the genetic information of the first life cannot be naturally generated on the primitive Earth;
- Therefore, the natural origin of life on Earth is impossible in science, so science cannot explain the origin of life on Earth based on the natural laws;
- In addition, these three factors will not change with the development of science and technology in the future, so science cannot explain the origin of life on Earth, not only today, but forever;
- The cause for the origin of life on Earth can only logically point to a supernatural power, namely God. God created life on Earth.

On the biological evolution
- Point mutations are caused by inevitable errors in DNA replication during cell division due to thermal movement, so they are random, but random point mutations cannot produce meaningful genetic information;
- All other genetic mutations, being bioinformatic processes, don’t follow the natural laws and are non-random;
- Therefore, biological evolution is not driven by natural forces and does not follow the natural laws. Science cannot explain the mechanism of biological evolution based on the natural laws;
- In addition, the reason leading to that science cannot explain the mechanism of biological evolution will not change with the development of science and technology in the future, so science cannot explain the mechanism of biological evolution, not only today, but forever;
- The cause for the mechanism of biological evolution can only logically point to a supernatural power, namely God. God gave life the ability to survive and evolve.

At present, I’ll only reply the posts related to the question – Life consists only of matter OR life consists of matter and information. SORRY.


Richard L. Wang
Member
Posts: 104
From: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Joined: 04-27-2020


Message 6 of 8 (876010)
05-11-2020 4:15 PM


Life consists of matter & information
life is made up of matter and information. Every cell has genetic information. In addition, we humans also have multiple forms of information: language, memory, knowledge and so on. “Life consists of matter & information” is a testable and observable fact.

At present, I’ll only reply the posts related to the question – Life consists only of matter OR life consists of matter and information. SORRY.


Richard L. Wang
Member
Posts: 104
From: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Joined: 04-27-2020


Message 7 of 8 (876012)
05-11-2020 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Admin
05-11-2020 10:23 AM


Re-Percy(3): A suggestion
Hi Percy, sorry for the confusion which I caused.

Now, NvC-1 thread copied to Is It Science? I would like to suggest to put all NvC-n topics into the same Forum Name “Is It Science?” Just a suggestion for your consideration.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Admin, posted 05-11-2020 10:23 AM Admin has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12705
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 8 of 8 (876020)
05-11-2020 5:07 PM


Closing This Proposal
Hi Richard,

This is too many messages for a thread proposal. Whatever central focus was intended has become obscured. From the Forum Guidelines:

  1. When introducing a new topic, please keep the message narrowly focused. Do not include more than a few points.

I'm going to close this proposal, but it will remain here for you to reference.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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