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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 434 of 560 (875890)
05-09-2020 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 433 by GDR
05-08-2020 6:54 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
My Christian beliefs flow from the idea that God is good, that mankind is called to do all that we can to alleviate suffering and that God resurrected Jesus confirming that we can understand God's nature by looking at what we know of the man Jesus. Everything else I believe about my faith flows from that.
And for the life of me I can't understand how you can believe all that given the utter craziness and total implausibility of the idea. It's baffling.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by GDR, posted 05-08-2020 6:54 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 436 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 11:15 AM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 438 of 560 (875905)
05-09-2020 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by GDR
05-09-2020 11:15 AM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
Frankly, it is just as baffling to me that there are those like yourself that are materialists. I can't comprehend the belief that life ultimately has only mindless origins. I can't muster up that kind of faith.
When I wrote that I also mentally made a note of your reply. I said to myself 'I just know he's going to create an equivalence. He's going to claim that I believe just as much in the other thing.
This is despite years of attempting to show you that our positions are entirely different; not just equal and opposite.
Not believing in god is NOT a belief in something else; it's just a non-belief in god. End. Maybe there is a god, who knows? But that has nothing to do with a belief in materialism. Or a belief in theism of whatever flavour. We both accept materialism or naturalism or whatever you want to call it because it's not a belief, it's evidenced facts. How far back we can take it is just a matter for how far science can go. We've only just started.
My position on *your* god is not the same as on *a* god. What I'm exasperated about is that we have a stack of actual evidence that tells us that the story you believe is just hokum. Yet you swallow it whole knowing how impossibly unlikely it is to be true. Just by reading your book it shows how questionable it all is. Any reasonable person would treat the entire thing with utmost scepticism.
My postion on your god is rational; yours is irrational. The two positions are not equivalent.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 11:15 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 1:06 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 440 of 560 (875909)
05-09-2020 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by GDR
05-09-2020 1:06 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
IMHO the materialist position is irrational.
I'm going to agree with you here - not just for the sake of argument but because it's true. Anything accepted by belief is irrational and as it can't be totally ruled out, regardless of how improbable, it's simply not possible to say that ALL there is is material. We can conclude it from the evidence, but just as we can't disprove leprechauns we can't disprove a deistic god.
But the point that you can't and/or refuse to get is that that is NOT true of a theism. Ignoring all the (lack of) historical evidence and simple logic that shows beyond reasonable doubt that biblical events are fiction, if there was a god intervening in our lives we'd know about it.
There is no equivalence in our positions - try to get your head round it. Believe what the hell you like but don't believe that a disbelief in theism is irrational; it's not, it's easily demonstrated by evidence, facts and logic.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 1:06 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by Phat, posted 05-09-2020 2:55 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 443 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 3:22 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 452 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 4:44 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 446 of 560 (875915)
05-09-2020 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by Phat
05-09-2020 2:55 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:
Not necessarily. Why must the presence of this God be obvious (equally) to every sentient creature?
Fairness? After all, you'd have us believe that this is a high stakes game, involving our everlasting souls. Maybe prejudice and bias is inappropriate in those circumstances?
The perception of absence is due entirely to lack of evidence, but evidence is not (or should not) be the only standard.
There is no other standard is there? Nothing but I believe which has been proven hopeless at explaining anything. Always.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by Phat, posted 05-09-2020 2:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 454 of 560 (875927)
05-09-2020 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by GDR
05-09-2020 4:44 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
Tangle, you call yourself an atheist. I'm looking at trying to understandhow you differentiate between atheism and materialism.
I don't. The two things are totally different. Not believing in gods doesn't mean I default to something else, it just means I don't believe in gods. That's it.
I know what it's not, I have no idea what it is.
Personally I doubt we'll ever know and don't see why we ever should, but the effort in trying to work it out is worth it because at least we work out what it's not. And what is obviously is not is theistic.
There really isn't any point making word and logic boxes to put things into so that things can be all neat and tidy - you don't think it's this so it must be that; real reality doesn't work like that, it's far more complicated than we are capable of imagining.
And no, just because we can't understand doesn't mean you can stick a god in there to save us the trouble. Gods explains nothing but our ignorance.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 4:44 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 5:35 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 456 of 560 (875932)
05-09-2020 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by GDR
05-09-2020 5:35 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
How would you define the gods that you don't believe in?
How would you define all the gods you don't believe in? Do you think it necessary?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 5:35 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 6:16 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 460 of 560 (875936)
05-09-2020 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 458 by GDR
05-09-2020 6:16 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
GDR writes:
I guess that I am trying to distinguish your understanding of atheism from my understanding of agnosticism.
I've tried to explain that there's no such thing as agnosticism - you either believe in something or you don't. If you don't know whether you believe in something or not, you obviously don't believe do you? You know you believe don't you? That’s what it is to believe.
I think that you have said that you can't reject the possibility that there is an intelligent creator of life,
I can't, and nobody can or ever will. That's the nature of rationality - that kind of negative can't be disproven.
but that you don't believe it to be the case.
I do not believe that any god exists, no. That very last jump from understanding that a deistic god - note deistic god - can't be disproven to not believing that one does exist is not rational - it's a belief. But one founded on we we actually know. Call it a conclusion.
So on one hand you don't believe in a creative intelligence of any description making you a materialist/atheist, but then you say that you can't reject the idea that such an entity exists making you agnostic.
Not being stupid enough to understand that a deistic god can't be disproven does not make me an agnostic. There is an enormous gulf between knowledge and belief.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by GDR, posted 05-09-2020 6:16 PM GDR has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 479 of 560 (876022)
05-11-2020 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 478 by GDR
05-11-2020 5:16 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:
Say I had been a follower of Jesus 2000 years ago. Suddenly this man I had been a disciple of is humiliating crucified by the Romans. Obviously a messiah can't be crucified by the enemy so I come to the realization that Jesus was simply a failed messiah.
Yup, disaster, my beliefs are all bollocks. Damn.
However a couple of days later Jesus shows up again but He is different some how. He has been resurrected and tells us that we are to spread His message, as confirmed by God with the resurrection, to the nations. That seems to me to be the likely incentive.
Yup. You've cracked it. The story you heard that he died but then someone tells you he resurrected himself is conclusive - solves all your problems, why would anybody tell that story? I really can't think.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by GDR, posted 05-11-2020 5:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by GDR, posted 05-11-2020 6:09 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 481 of 560 (876036)
05-12-2020 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 480 by GDR
05-11-2020 6:09 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
You assume the stories are true because you say such eye witnesses existed, but the way the stories in the bible evolve and grow over time demonstrates that they didn't. They were added into the story later to make them more believable. It wasn't even in the very first version of the bible - Mark.
So we start with Mark. It is little known among the laity, but in fact the ending of Mark, everything after verse 16:8, does not actually exist in the earliest versions of that Gospel that survive.[28] It was added some time late in the 2nd century or even later. Before that, as far as we can tell, Mark ended at verse 16:8. But that means his Gospel ended only with an empty tomb, and a pronouncement by a mysterious young man [29] that Jesus would be seen in Galilee--nothing is said of how he would be seen. This was clearly unsatisfactory for the growing powerful arm of the Church a century later, which had staked its claim on a physical resurrection, against competing segments of the Church usually collectively referred to as the Gnostics (though not always accurately). So an ending was added that quickly pinned some physical appearances of Jesus onto the story, and for good measure put in the mouth of Christ rabid condemnations of those who didn't believe it.
Why I Don't Buy the Resurrection Story » Internet Infidels

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by GDR, posted 05-11-2020 6:09 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 12:17 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 485 of 560 (876083)
05-12-2020 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by GDR
05-12-2020 12:17 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:
Also you make a point about the early manuscript of Mark ending at 16:8. Good grief. I doubt that there is anyone who disputes that.
So to remind you of what you say everyone knows, Mark, the anonymous author of the earliest gospel who, you tell us gets the story from Peter does not have the resurrection in his account! It's added over a century later by we don't know who. Obviously a total fabrication.
This, you tell us, is the most important event in the entire book, the event that you tell us you hang your whole faith on; without it you tell us your religion would be defunct. Yet it's missing from the first, and one would expect, the most reliable description of supposed events. How can you possibly think that any of this is in anyway reliable?
A matter of belief I suppose. It overrides all possible objections from fact.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 12:17 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 1:08 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 487 of 560 (876098)
05-12-2020 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 486 by GDR
05-12-2020 1:08 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:
It isn't conclusive, but the majority of scholars believe that the original ending was lost.
But for whatever reason it wasn't there! Someone filled in the hole a hundred plus years later with a story that you like. I'm asking why - how - you can possibly find that believable? Not only is it not evidence being entirely hearsay anyway, it's actually a forgery - added to later.
as is the disbelief in the whole narrative.
The facts that it is both hearsay and forged is not a matter of belief is it?
It wouldn't even get thrown out of court as poor evidence, it wouldn't even get to court at all - it's so non-evidential. Yet it's all the 'evidence' you have that you hang this shebang off.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 1:08 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 3:05 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 492 of 560 (876109)
05-12-2020 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by GDR
05-12-2020 3:05 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:
I don't see it as a forgery.
That's not actually a surprise. But it's inescapable. Mark was not an eyewitness. His story was completed by more anonymous people over a hundred ears later under the same name. Call it what you like, it wasn't factual. Anything but.
There are lots of things that are true that get thrown out of court.
Like I said, this couldn't possibly get *into* court.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 3:05 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 8:17 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 497 of 560 (876138)
05-13-2020 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by GDR
05-12-2020 8:17 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:
According to Papias who the Gospel was written by Mark, (likely Jean Mark) who was a companion of Peter.
Except that it's now accepted that Mark wrote his stories from a compilation of hearsay and myth.
quote:
Most scholars date Mark to AD 65-75.[3] They reject the traditional ascription to Mark the Evangelist, the companion of the Apostle Peter, which probably arose from the desire of early Christians to link the work to an authoritative figure, and believe it to be the work of an author working with various sources including collections of miracle stories, controversy stories, parables, and a passion narrative.[4] It was traditionally placed second, and sometimes fourth, in the Christian canon, as an inferior abridgement of what was regarded as the most important gospel, Matthew.[5] The Church has consequently derived its view of Jesus primarily from Matthew, secondarily from John, and only distantly from Mark.[6] It was only in the 19th century that Mark came to be seen as the earliest of the four gospels, and as a source used by both Matthew and Luke.[6] The hypothesis of Marcan priority (that Mark was written first) continues to be held by the majority of scholars today, and there is a new recognition of the author as an artist and theologian using a range of literary devices to convey his conception of Jesus as the authoritative yet suffering Son of God.[6]
And the development of the resurection story over time is very obvious.
quote:
Christians of Mark's time expected Jesus to return as Messiah in their own lifetime — Mark, like the other gospels, attributes the promise to Jesus himself (Mark 9:1 and 13:30), and it is reflected in the letters of Paul, in the epistle of James, in Hebrews, and in Revelation. When return failed, the early Christians revised their understanding. Some acknowledged that the Second Coming had been delayed, but still expected it; others redefined the focus of the promise, the Gospel of John, for example, speaking of "eternal life" as something available in the present; while still others concluded that Jesus would not return at all (2 Peter argues against those who held this view).[62]
Mark's despairing death of Jesus was changed to a more victorious one in subsequent gospels.[63] Mark's Christ dies with the cry, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"; Matthew, the next gospel to be written, repeats this word for word but manages to make clear that Jesus's death is the beginning of the resurrection of Israel; Luke has a still more positive picture, replacing Mark's (and Matthew's) cry of despair with one of submission to God's will ("Father, into your hands I commend my spirit"); while John, the last gospel, has Jesus dying without apparent suffering in fulfillment of the divine plan.[63]
Gospel of Mark - Wikipedia
It's all an obvious fabrication for a purpose. How intelligent people can think that this stuff is evidence of anything other than a attempt to create and maintain a mythology is beyond me.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by GDR, posted 05-12-2020 8:17 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by GDR, posted 05-13-2020 8:47 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 500 of 560 (876189)
05-14-2020 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 499 by GDR
05-13-2020 8:47 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:
The following is a summary of the work of Richard Bauckham a Cambridge professor who has done a massive amount of research of the ancient documents and shows the strong evidence that the narrator of Mark was a disciple of Peter, as confirmed by Papias and Polycarp.
And the following is strong evidence that the anonymous author of Mark (who never claims to have even met Peter) was not a disciple of Peter. Papias also never met any of the apostles and got his 'information' from oral traditions. It's an edifice built on speculation and hearsay.
It's a long and scholarly article - and I think pretty fair. I'm no biblical scholar and I now know more about this squirming nest of conjecture that I really want to. It's clear that there's no reason at all to believe any particular version of the historicity of the bible stories.
Why Scholars Doubt the Traditional Authors of the Gospels » Internet Infidels

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by GDR, posted 05-13-2020 8:47 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by GDR, posted 05-14-2020 4:57 PM Tangle has not replied

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