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Author Topic:   Report Discussion Problems Here 4.0
dwise1
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Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(3)
Message 745 of 860 (876120)
05-12-2020 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 741 by Minnemooseus
05-11-2020 11:31 PM


Re: Grumpy either way?
Except that some of us are not here to debate, but rather to discuss.
A discussion needs an honest exchange of information with each side asking the other honest sincere questions about their position and claims, including the basis of how they had arrived at their position and claims and their lines of reasoning. And receiving honest answers to those questions. Including the type of questions where you ask "Here is what I understand your position/claim to be. Is that correct?" -- IOW, requests for clarification which should be honored.
Of course, complete honesty is an ideal that is too rarely realized with many questions ending up being extra probing and many answers being more guarded and even bordering on evasive, but at a minimum discussion does require a conversation, an exchange of ideas and information, and a goal of attaining clarification, knowledge, and understanding.
Debate is a different matter altogether. A debate is the opposite of a discussion. In a debate the goal is to win by whatever means. In formal settings (eg, debate classes/clubs, formal debate competitions, courtrooms), there are academic and ethical standards that debaters must adhere to. However, in informal settings (eg, creationist debates, forum trolling) anything goes and there is no limit to the dishonest tricks, lies, and deceptions that will be used.
In the decades that I've been involved in this issue, I can only think of one single YEC-type creationist that I encountered who was honest and willing to engage in discussion -- that was on CompuServe in 1993-94 and within a year his honest approach led him to abandon creationism; his story, which I have quoted from a few timeshere , is archived at Did We Evolve?.
The creationists that we keep getting here are the same as the ones that I have been encountering for decades. Evasive, deceptive, arrogant, clueless about the subject matter and even about their own claims, willing to lie about everything and anything, intent on preventing any discussion from occurring. Basically, little more than trolls. Prime examples are candle2 and now cristian_gavrilescu, both nothing but trolls, though the latter appears to not be human but rather a trolling program similar to ELIZA as he repeatedly shoots his mouth off from the hip without any mental process involved with almost immediate turn-around.
Richard L. Wang has not been much better, though not as overtly troll-like. While he should be capable of discussion, he has so far sought to prevent discussion. Which is too bad, because I had hoped that we could finally have a creationist we could discuss things with. Instead, he only wants a debate, the opposite of a discussion, and he wants to push his religious agenda and cram it down our throats no matter what.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-11-2020 11:31 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 763 of 860 (877492)
06-16-2020 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 761 by jar
06-16-2020 5:28 PM


Spam spam spam in the Coffee House.
Navy veteran?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 761 by jar, posted 06-16-2020 5:28 PM jar has replied

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 835 of 860 (904842)
01-08-2023 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 830 by Tangle
01-07-2023 12:12 PM


Not anymore, you've used the same argument hundreds of times - in a single thread - with these nutjobs. Now it's just a sport for you.
A member of our discussion brunch today had a similar objection. She didn't feel that we should be laughing at the Republican clowns getting ready to destroy Congress and our country. I quoted Michael Valentine Smith (a human raised by Martians) from Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land (1961), when he was finally able to grok laughter (paraphrased): "Laughter is not nice. We never laugh at anything nice happening, but always at something bad. We laugh to keep it from hurting."
But the other point to laughing at MAGAts is to expose how ludicrous they are. They are going to speak anyway and to present their ridiculously false claims, so by publicly exposing them we can lessen the damage they do.
It's the same as with debating creationists -- refer to my page, Creation / Evolution Debates in which I provide several links to the ongoing discussion of whether to debate creationists:
  • Con: Such "debates" are travelling snake-oil shows run by creationists and rigged to ensure creationist "victory." Agreeing to debate is just falling into their trap.
  • Con: Agreeing to debate them just gives them false legitimacy.
  • Con: Well-meaning opponents who don't know what they're getting themselves into often do more damage to science education.
  • Pro: The creationist is going to speak anyway, so if there's nobody to hold him accountable for his lies then the public won't learn that he is indeed lying.
  • Pro: It's a training opportunity just waiting for you to exploit. One professor said that he can barely keep the attention of students in his lectures, but here's an auditorium full of people listening intently on every word he says.
Most of the time that I'm "wasting my time on that willfully stupid creationist", he's not the reason why I am casting pearls before that swine. Rather, I'm writing for the lurkers (formerly called "visitors" on this forum -- the number of non-member visitors used to appear on the "online now" line).
They may be fooled by the lies posted by our creationists and trolls unless someone refutes those lies. That is the service that we provide.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2023 12:12 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 836 by Tangle, posted 01-09-2023 4:15 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
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