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Author Topic:   Hitch is dead
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 506 of 560 (876228)
05-14-2020 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by ringo
05-14-2020 11:23 AM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
ringo writes:
I see the Bible as 66 books - give or take, depending on the canon. The God depicted in the New Testament is not more accurate than the God depicted in the Old Testament. The alien overlord, if it exists, may or may not resemble any of the gods depicted in the Bible. There is certainly no valid rationale for choosing one personality over another.
I'd humbly suggest that there are valid reasons. The idea that we should love one another goes back to Leviticus. The 10 commandments aren't so bad either. So, even in the first books in the OT we can see evidence of a deity that calls us to love others. Then we have the books where various prophets tell their leaders that God is ordering them to commit ovarious atrocities including genocide. The OT is full of accounts about false prophets. I suggest that it is pretty clear that not all the false prophets got weeded out, and that the various leaders accepted the advice of some of these false prophets. (I think in many cases the false prophets said what the leaders wanted to hear and the leaders accepted the words of the prophets that said what they wanted to hear.)
As I've said in other places I see the Bible as the progressive understanding of God and His nature and His desires for how we live our lives. This of course climaxes Biblically in Jesus.
Also of course I understand God's nature from the belief that God resurrected Jesus, then I can look at Jesus to understand the nature of God.
ringo writes:
And yet He said Himself that that was exactly not what He was doing.
Not really. He says that He came to fulfill the laws and that all the laws were based on love of God and neighbour. He radically changed the law on divorce, rejected the teaching of an eye for eye, essentially discarded the sabbath and food laws and replaced Temple sacrifice with a call for mercy.
ringo writes:
I don't buy that.
Believe me, I can look back on my life and at the things I screwed up when I went with what I wanted. In some cases the Christian understanding that God forgives when we repent doesn't cut it when I have trouble forgiving myself.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by ringo, posted 05-14-2020 11:23 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by ringo, posted 05-15-2020 11:58 AM GDR has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 510 of 560 (876259)
05-15-2020 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 507 by ringo
05-15-2020 11:58 AM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
ringo writes:
The idea that we should love one another goes back to the Olduvai Gorge - and before that.
Of course. I was merely pointing out that it was in the Hebrew Scriptures and not original with Jesus. Jesus was referring to that reading from Leviticus.
ringo writes:
You conveniently ignore the occasions when God committed atrocities all on His own - the Flood, for example.
Gimme a break. Do I have to go through all of the egregious commands in the OT every time it comes up. I have already pointed that out numerous times already. Yes, the OT has God commanding and committing acts of genocide as well as commanding public stoning for offences as minor as picking up firewood on the Sabbath.
ringo writes:
And usually pretty clear about pointing out which ones were false. There's no indication that the ones advocating atrocities were false.
Rather than having to go through this all again here are links to two posts of mine in conversation with Faith addressing that issue. Message 1 and Message 5

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by ringo, posted 05-15-2020 11:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by Phat, posted 05-16-2020 11:12 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 512 by ringo, posted 05-16-2020 12:14 PM GDR has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 518 of 560 (876469)
05-20-2020 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by Stile
05-20-2020 1:11 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Stile writes:
And whenever a group of adults gets around a Ouija board... they all agree that "something supernatural" happened.
(The doors slammed when no one moved them / the vase fell and broke on it's own / the voices were real / no one was actually moving the slider ...)
Even though it did not.
Do you think a $15 piece of cardboard you can buy from Wall Mart is a portal to the supernatural dimension and skeptics just haven't caught on to it yet?
Name me one person who has based their life on what came from a Ouija board. That comment does not come close to matching your usual well thought out arguments.
Stile writes:
Eye witnesses can be correct - sure.
But they can also be incorrect - even about the general idea they "all agree on."
That's why eye-witnesses are considered extremely unreliable.
Sure if there is only one or even two eye witnesses. In this case there were numerous eye witnesses.
Stile writes:
Exactly.
But it's quite easy (and fits the mold) for making up a great story.
There is no motivation for making it up. They had to go against all of the authorities, risk their lives, and repudiate much of the beliefs that they had firmly held previously. Look what happened to Stephen. He would have been an eye witness. He suffered a torturous death rather than saying - ya ok we were only kidding.
Not only that, if they had made it up it isn't at all what they would have come up with. Not only that they would have shown themselves in a much more positive light.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Stile, posted 05-20-2020 1:11 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by Stile, posted 05-21-2020 2:20 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 520 of 560 (876534)
05-21-2020 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by Stile
05-21-2020 2:20 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Stile writes:
Hundreds/thousands of eye witnesses have been known to be incorrect about claimed occurrences of the supernatural - the Ouija board is only one simple example.
Think of things like psychic entertainment shows, or haunted house conventions...
In fact, where eye witnesses are concerned - sometimes mob mentality travels easier in larger crowds - and then higher numbers of people claiming the same thing means even less, not more support.
That may all be true but this isn't a supernatural event as such. The resurrection is claimed to be physical and historical. Jesus died on the cross. Subsequent to that numerous people interacted with Him in a physical way. It may have supernatural underpinnings but it is a very physical event. They aren't saying that they had a vision, the eye witnesses in groups claim to have experienced Him physically.
It isn't a case of mob mentality. Where do you see a mob in any of this. It is a case of people experiencing a risen physical Jesus in a way that no one would have expected.
Stile writes:
There are motivations for making it up.
There are motivations for not making it up.
Stile writes:
Yet he did get food and water and shelter by "followers" everywhere he went.
Sounds like incentive to me.
As much incentive as anyone ever has... travel, accommodations, food, friends...
But they had all of that already without alienating themselves from their fellow Jews, their family or friends. Paul had a prestigious position and was upwardly mobile. Peter could have a nice quite family life fishing the Galilee. Their opportunity to travel meant travel by trudging on dusty roads day after day. The food they received was the equivalent of a homeless person today being given hand outs.
Stile writes:
Or, as I say, is it possible for people to die-for/promote/support "great/big ideas" that are not entirely correct about reality?
Absolutely, but they did believe in what they were doing. You have already agreed that the apostles believed that the resurrection was historical. They aren't saying that they have had some kind of supernatural experience, they are saying that they have witnessed a physical event.
Stile writes:
Coming back from the dead isn't a good enough "hook" for you?
Strange - it seems rather large to me.
What I am saying is that even if I agree, which I don't that they had sufficient motivation to fabricate all of this, then this isn't what they would have come up with.
They were first century Jews. The would have had Jesus glowing in the dark, surrounded by angels etc, not BBQing by the lake.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Stile, posted 05-21-2020 2:20 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 521 by Stile, posted 05-28-2020 12:28 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 522 of 560 (876808)
05-28-2020 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 521 by Stile
05-28-2020 12:28 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Stile writes:
Just as many eye witnesses to ouija boards, psychic entertainment shows and haunted house conventions can claim to have experienced many things physically... that didn't actually happen.
But you are making a category mistake. You are confusing what was seen for what caused the happening. The pointer on the ouija board did move and everyone would agree. That fact is correct. It is the same with resurrection. People all agreed that Jesus was resurrected. The question in both instances is why.
Stile writes:
Again - I'm not saying that this "proves you wrong."
I'm saying that there's "reasonable doubt" on what you claim to be true.
..just as I can't prove you wrong. The doubt stems from the fact that this happening does not conform to any scientific law that we know of, and is something that none of us have witnessed or experienced. It is completely outside the bounds of normal human existence.
However if we are the result of intelligence and life itself appeared in a mindless universe then there are grounds to give the accounts credibility.
Stile writes:
You were the one who claimed there were many, many people.
The word "mob" in the context of the phrase "mob mentality" only refers to there being "many, many people..."
It does not imply that the people were frenzied or acting hysterically as may be assumed in other contexts of the word "mob."
We don't have to use the word "mob mentality" - we can call it "many, many people all believing the same thing that still may or may not have happened."
It's all the same to me.
Fair enough, but I think that using the term "mob mentality" does have negative implications that your other phrase doesn't.
GDR writes:
It is a case of people experiencing a risen physical Jesus in a way that no one would have expected.
Stile writes:
Or believing it happened when it actually didn't.
It would be hard not to believe if you are able to touch and converse with a physically resurrected Jesus. My point though was simply that if they were going to make something up this is not even close to what they would have come up with within a 1st century Jewish culture.
Stile writes:
Many people believe in things that are historical that didn't actually happen. Even people in very large groups who are saying they have witnessed a physical event. Some times that physical event simply didn't happen at all.
Can you give me an example.
Stile writes:
When the "claimed physical event" is a car accident - yes, usually the large group of people is correct that a car accident happened but just wrong on the detail
As in this case. They all agree that Jesus was bodily resurrected but not all the details align.
Stile writes:
When the "claimed physical event" is a ouija board "from beyond..."
encounter, or a psychic entertainment show, or a haunted house convention... usually the large group of people is incorrect and the claimed physical event actually didn't happen at all.
But again, they would all agree that the pointer on the ouija board moved.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by Stile, posted 05-28-2020 12:28 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by Stile, posted 06-02-2020 4:42 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 526 of 560 (877100)
06-04-2020 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 524 by Stile
06-02-2020 4:42 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:
But you are making a category mistake. You are confusing what was seen for what caused the happening. The pointer on the ouija board did move and everyone would agree.
Stile writes:
If those were the things I was comparing, I would agree - it would be a category mistake.
But, that's not the things I'm comparing.
By "eye witnesses to ouija boards, psychic entertainment shows and haunted house conventions" I meant physical claims (from large-amounts-of-agreeing-people) like:
-things floating through walls
-talking to the dead while the dead are physically present in the room
-seeing the dead/demons/angels physically present in the room
-floating objects
-things being moved or broken by non-human-alive-entities (such as dead people, or spirits or demons or angels)
Would you agree such physical claims are in the same category as the ressurection?
No
I have never heard of an account of any of these occurrences you talk about where the object of the vision is physical in the sense that it can be touched and felt physically. I have never heard of a case where there were multiple sightings in different locations involving large numbers of people.
You claim that you know of a case(s) where people have talked to people physically in the room. Do you know of a case where people were able to actually touch and feel the deceased person in the room. If you can find somebody who claimed that, can you then find anyone to verify it. Can you then show where a whole movement formed around the occurrence and subsequent teachings of the sightings.
You will likely mention Joseph Smith but that whole movement started based on his word alone that he had received a divine message, without any, let alone numerous, others to verify it. He then wrote a book about it and lived a privileged life as a result.
Firstly, I don’t accept that what you describe are physical events. However, I believe that in the majority of cases the happenings can be shown to be illusions performed by entertainers or fraudsters. There may be more to some of these occurrences, but I can’t go further than that. I had a friend that lost a 28 year old son and claimed to have had a conversation with him after his death. Was it psychosomatic? I don’t know. However, there isn’t anyone else who can verify her story.
Stile writes:
Sure.
Of course, there's no evidence that "we are the result of intelligence."
And there is evidence that suggests "life itself appeared in a min dless universe" without any requirement for intelligence at all.
Well, we’ve been down this road before and the evidence that we are the result of mindlessness is strictly that we can investigate the processes that resulted in us being alive. However there is no scientific evidence that the processes themselves had a mindless origin. I contend that there is an abundance of philosophical evidence, but then I know that you discount that as evidence at all.
Stile writes:
Ouija Boards - "demonic encounters, spirits physically attacking houseguests..."
Psychics - reviews from people all demanding in agreement that this guy is "for real."
Haunted Houses - including tales of "moving objects" and physical appearences/touching of the ghosts. Some have even claimed to have been raped by ghosts.
There are many, many more.
These kinds of physical claims are not rare.
There are many in agreement with the originators who demand such stories must be true.
Just as you demand (in agreement with many, and the authors of the Gospels) that the resurrection must be true.
There are also those (you may be among them?) who disagree that such physical ghost stories "must be true."
Just as I am among those who disagree that such physical stories of the resurrection "must be true."
When I asked for examples I meant specific examples.
Stile writes:
As is the case with many ouija board, psychis entertainment and haunted house convention stories believe whole-heartedly by their believers.
But how about specific cases. Did any of these cases happen to different groups at different times without there being any prior expectation that the occurrence could happen? I’m not talking about some charismatic leader getting people to follow him/her. This is a case of people completely adjusting their fundamental beliefs because of the event itself.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 524 by Stile, posted 06-02-2020 4:42 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 527 by ringo, posted 06-04-2020 4:30 PM GDR has replied
 Message 529 by Stile, posted 06-05-2020 11:48 AM GDR has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 528 of 560 (877114)
06-04-2020 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by ringo
06-04-2020 4:30 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
I didn't say there was. I was responding to Stile's claim that there was scientific evidence for a mindless cause of our existence.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by ringo, posted 06-04-2020 4:30 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 539 of 560 (877173)
06-06-2020 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 529 by Stile
06-05-2020 11:48 AM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Stile writes:
I gave you books and lists chock full of specific examples.
If you want to pick a few, we can still do that:
Here's a specific example of a girl claiming to have sex with ghosts.
That seems a lot more physical than just come "seeing and basic touching."
Does that mean this ghost is more likely to be real than the resurrection?
Firstly the article is even titled sex with a ghost. That hardly sounds physical. In addition it is an experience of one individual at a time. There is no one to confirm the occurrence and no one has considered changing their world view because of it.
Stile writes:
Here's one experienced by many people - all with "similar stories that only differ on the details"
The Mackenzie Poltergeist
-many, many eye witnesses
-many getting "cuts, bruises and burns" from the poltergeist - again, more than just touching.
Does this mean this poltergeist is more likely to be real than the resurrection?
These a re not uncommon.
Any library you go to will have entire sections devoted to people who believe in their experiences as much, or maybe even more, than you believe in the resurrection.
All with the same sort of "eye witness" evidence of "physical events" occurring. Some to single people, other to many, multiples of people.
Many have recorded evidence, even - this is even more evidence the resurrection has.
They use exactly the same terminology you use to claim the resurrection is real.
-so many different people have witnessed it
-physical things have occurred that cannot be explained any other way
-no one is lying about it
-these people are all just searching for the truth and trying to let others know what they know
-there is no motivation for them to be trying to trick others
Firstly here is a more balanced article that even provides possible scientific explanations.
Mackenzie Poltergeist
Again you are using the term "poltergeist". Thst is synonymous with ghost. It is not physical.
This is a tourist site with people prospering from it. It is goulish from the point of view that they are profiting from the incredible sufferings of people who died at the hands of a psychopath.
People that go there have a foreboding sense of occurrences to start with, and are
prone to believing that something could happen. In the case of the resurrection we know from historic records of first century Judaism that the resurrection was not what anyone thought would happen, (which is consistent with the Gospel accounts), and were surprised by it.
The occurrences happened in multiple places to multiple people. It changed the world view of thousands in short order and was attested to by numerous people even decades later.
Stile writes:
I don't see how you can claim the resurrection is "highly likely" but these stories are not.
Unless, of course, your measurement on "likelihood" is very much attached to your per sonal connection with the event - which is what I think is happening.
Unfortunately, such a "personal connection" is well understood to lead one away from reality, not towards it.
The stories you quoted are not in the same category as the resurrection accounts, for the reasons I have outlined. I agree that resurrection is far removed from our life experiences. We know now, as they did then, that except in cases of resuscitation people who are dead remain dead.
However if we hold the theistic belief that life is the result of intelligence, then the resurrection accounts are open to consideration. If of course, we hold a materialistic or atheistic belief then the resurrection is impossible and there has to be another explanation.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by Stile, posted 06-05-2020 11:48 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 541 by Stile, posted 06-10-2020 9:00 AM GDR has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 542 of 560 (877329)
06-12-2020 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by Stile
06-10-2020 9:00 AM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Stile writes:
Sex hardly sounds physical?
Hmm.. it is the ghost part that isn't ,but I think you know that.
Stile writes:
Yes, such "more balanced articles providing possible scientific explanations" exist for the resurrection and all the Biblical stories as well.
Does that mean the resurrection is now less likely to have occurred?
Sure. I have read books and listened to debates on the subject. The natural explanations are based on the belief that we know it can't have happened and so we know it didn't. As I said earlier, that if we are the result of intelligence then there is reason to believe that the resurrection, as told by the first generation of Christ's followers, can be considered as being historical.
Stile writes:
The claims here are all about the ghost/poltergeist doing physical things: being physically seen (just like Jesus); being physically touched (just like Jesus); physically affecting the environment around them (just like Jesus.)
Yes ,these accounts are about non-physical beings. The resurrected Jesus was a physical being.
GDR writes:
People that go there have a foreboding sense of occurrences to start with, and are prone to believing that something could happen.
Stile writes:
Are you talking about people believing in ghosts?
Or people believing in the resurrection of Jesus Christ?
Because this kind of statement, again, equally applies to both.
That isn't the case. When Jesus was crucified all of his followers assumed that Jesus was simply another failed messiah and they had gone back to their fishingetc, and out of fear had disassociated themselves with the movement. Even after the resurrection, as we can see in Acts 1, they were still thinking that Jesus was going, using the power of Yahweh, to kick the Romans out of their nation.
Stile writes:
And there are many, larger religious sites that promote the resurrection of Jesus Christ that gain a much larger profit than this as well.
Are you equally arguing that the resurrection is any less real because of that?
Sure, but that wasn't the case with the first generation of followers, and in fact there was a cost to be paid. It was after Constantine came along that the whole thing went off the rails and Christianity became a route to power, influence and wealth.
Stile writes:
I can guarantee you that more people have read the Bible and had their world view changed away from believing in Jesus Christ - then people have heard about the Mackenzie Poltergeist and had their world view changed away from ghosts.
Does this imply the Mackenzie Poltergeist is more likely to be real than the resurrection of Jesus Christ?
Firstly that is an opinion, and something that you can't guarantee. However that isn't the point. The first generation didn't have a Bible. What they had was the personal experience of Jesus, or the accounts of the eyewitnesses of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
Stile writes:
The are in exactly the same category. Your reasons do not apply, and only include you mis-characterizing things.
Why is "Jesus Christ being physically seen and physically affecting reality after death" not in the same category as "the Mackenzie Poltergeist being physically seen and physically affecting reality after death?"
because you are talking about people physically seeing things that aren't physical. I'm not.
Stile writes:
The accounts of the resurrection are open to consideration regardless of life being the result of intelligence or not.
I have never said otherwise. I simply said that if we are the result of intelligence then we can be open to the possibility.
Stile writes:
Reality is whatever it is.
GDR's beliefs may place restrictions on what GDR thinks about reality.
However, Stile's atheistic "beliefs" do not place restrictions on reality at all, in fact they PROMOTE that "reality is whatever reality is" and we become aware of whatever we're capable of learning.
My theistic beliefs allow me to accept the possibility of resurrection.
Atheistic beliefs reject the possibility. When you’re dead you stay dead, (not talking about resuscitation), without external interference.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Stile, posted 06-10-2020 9:00 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by ringo, posted 06-13-2020 12:40 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 544 of 560 (877355)
06-13-2020 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by ringo
06-13-2020 12:40 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
ringo writes:
So were the Three Bears - but they were fictional physical beings. That's not a close connection to real physical beings.
No it isn't. Stile has already agreed that the writers of the Gospels believed that their accounts were essentially accurate, which does not mean that they didn't use metaphor or even hyperbole. They are intended to be understood as historical or non-fiction accounts.
In these accounts the resurrected Jesus is physical, albeit as a renewed physicality.
That does not mean that they weren't wrong, but it does show that we can't say the resurrection accounts can be classified in the same way as accounts intended as fictional.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by ringo, posted 06-13-2020 12:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 545 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 8:00 AM GDR has replied
 Message 547 by ringo, posted 06-14-2020 1:10 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 546 of 560 (877364)
06-14-2020 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by Phat
06-14-2020 8:00 AM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
First off Phat I’d really like to thank you for the work you do as a moderator and the even handed way in which you do it.
Phat writes:
of course, some do not recognize the Holy Spirit as any different than a ghost in a house. One difference is that a ghost would not have the power to brainwash an entire audience. The Holy Spirit would, but likely would not resort to manipulation and control. The Holy Spirit draws all men towards God. It remains their decision to allow or resist such a call.
I recently had a discussion with Tangle where I essentially equated spiritual influence to one of Dawkins’ memes. There are the the obvious memes that impact our lives, such as when we have our hearts and minds changed by listening to a talk, reading something that has an impact on us, the way we are raised etc. I contend that the Holy Spirit is essentially a God meme in pretty much the way you describe it although I think that I would nuance it a little differently. I would say that the Holy Spirit draws all people to the loving nature of God, which is best understood in the Golden Rule. In order to be drawn to any specific religious belief, it takes a meme from a physical or human source.
From a Christian perspective we can see people convinced of the existence of the God of Christianity at an intellectual level, but largely left untouched by the Holy Spirit of that God. Conversely we can see people that intellectually reject Christianity but accept the Holy Spirit by responding to that call to the Golden Rule. Both of us would agree that it is better to be in both camps, but if it is only one or the other I’d go with the second option, which I would contend is consistent with the fundamental theme of the New Testament.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 8:00 AM Phat has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 555 of 560 (877384)
06-14-2020 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 547 by ringo
06-14-2020 1:10 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
ringo writes:
The authors' supposed intentions are not a major factor in deciding whether an account IS fictional. We classify an account as fictional if it fails to meet the standards of reality.
The Gospels were written by either an eye witness or by someone with direct access to the eyewitnesses. They wrote what they believed to be historically accurate, even though there was in all likelihood some metaphor or hyperbole included in that. That has been agreed upon.
That makes them works of non-fiction in the same way that we can understand any historical accounts. It is not proof of their accuracy. We can choose to argue about what if any of it is historically accurate, as again, we can with any historical account but it is not a work of the imagination as required for a fictional account.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by ringo, posted 06-14-2020 1:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by ramoss, posted 06-15-2020 9:43 AM GDR has replied
 Message 558 by ringo, posted 06-15-2020 10:47 AM GDR has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 559 of 560 (877401)
06-15-2020 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 556 by ramoss
06-15-2020 9:43 AM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:
The Gospels were written by either an eye witness or by someone with direct access to the eyewitnesses. They wrote what they believed to be historically accurate, even though there was in all likelihood some metaphor or hyperbole included in that. That has been agreed upon.
ramoss writes:
That is the claim. I do not see any evidence that claim is actually true. If fact, the internal evidence shows the first is not true, and shows it is highly unlikely for the second.
I realize that this is in the coffee house forum but I think this is too big a topic for this and I have been uncomfortable for quite a while writing under a heading that really should have been a lament for Chris Hitchens. As a result I'll start a new thread to answer bot yours and ringo's post.
Edited by GDR, : typo

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by ramoss, posted 06-15-2020 9:43 AM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 560 by AdminPhat, posted 06-16-2020 3:44 AM GDR has not replied

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