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Author Topic:   NvC-1: What is the premise of Naturalism in Biology?
AZPaul3
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Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 163 of 452 (876483)
05-20-2020 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by jar
05-20-2020 8:13 PM


Re: Language in Though and Action
You're right there on the edge, jar. Now follow through.

Factio Republicana delenda est.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 165 of 452 (876486)
05-21-2020 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by GDR
05-20-2020 10:31 PM


It's in the uniqueness of the flower. It has it's own specific dna code etc.
That DNA is in and manipulates the structure, the relationships, of the matter/energy. But the stem, the petals, the color, the scent, the leaves, the recognition of the structure, all the "information" our senses have created in our minds that result from that DNA manipulation, are human constructs and are in fact, the very essence of what we call "daffodil".
We say we gather information from the world. In reality our senses create the information as streams of particles to be perceived within our minds. The world doesn't know the information of petal, stem, yellow, DNA, physics, forces. Our minds do.
The matter/energy relationships may operate and react in accord with the natural order but those structures and relationships are not information until they are perceived.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Factio Republicana delenda est.

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 Message 164 by GDR, posted 05-20-2020 10:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 11:46 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 176 of 452 (876510)
05-21-2020 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by GDR
05-21-2020 11:46 AM


We gather information. It is there to be gathered.
It is where to be gathered? In what form is this information before it is gathered?

Factio Republicana delenda est.

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 Message 168 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 11:46 AM GDR has replied

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 Message 181 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 3:56 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 188 of 452 (876530)
05-21-2020 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by GDR
05-21-2020 3:56 PM


It isn't a case of where it is, it just exists. It exists in the same way that mathematical formulas exist.
Majik?
If something exists then it exists somewhere in some form.
Other than some BS conceptions of gods I don't know of anything that is said to exist yet to exist nowhere.
For math, we know where it exists - in the mind.
We gather information. It is there to be gathered.
So, again, *where* is this information that is "there" to be gathered?

Factio Republicana delenda est.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by WookieeB, posted 05-21-2020 7:18 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 189 of 452 (876532)
05-21-2020 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by GDR
05-21-2020 4:15 PM


In my case I contend that information exists without the perception of sentient life. I would even say that it exists outside of our perceived universe.
Ahh, then it *is* majik!
Cue The Lovin' Spoonful.

Factio Republicana delenda est.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 192 of 452 (876540)
05-21-2020 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by WookieeB
05-21-2020 7:18 PM


But you dont believe the mind exists.
I don't? That's news to me.
But, then, you're a majik believer which means you believe everything since majik has no limits.
You believe you know what I believe just like you believe your god is Satan.

Factio Republicana delenda est.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 193 of 452 (876541)
05-21-2020 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by WookieeB
05-21-2020 7:11 PM


But no matter what different forms of matter are used to transmit it, be they ink, paper, rock, vibrating molecules in a pressurized space, photons, radio waves, the four base molecules of DNA, or many other types of media - Macbeth, the information, is the same. The information itself is not dependent on the matter.
If every copy of Macbeth on whatever medium, even the ones in our minds, were destroyed then Macbeth would cease to exist. There would be no idea, there would be no information, about any Macbeth.
The content of the information may not be dependant on the physical matter/energy media used but its very existence in this universe most definitely is. Without being embodied in some form of physical system information does not exist.

Factio Republicana delenda est.

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 Message 190 by WookieeB, posted 05-21-2020 7:11 PM WookieeB has replied

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 Message 194 by WookieeB, posted 05-22-2020 12:17 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 196 of 452 (876547)
05-22-2020 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by WookieeB
05-22-2020 12:17 AM


So what?
I was agreeing with you. You take offence at that?
Without being embodied in some form of physical system information does not exist.
There are some key words in there.... but again, so what?
Because the point needs to be emphasized that though the *content* of information is not dependant on the physical media the very *existence* of that information is.

Factio Republicana delenda est.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 208 of 452 (876577)
05-23-2020 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by WookieeB
05-23-2020 4:18 AM


The information in DNA is not there due to any physical laws of the matter of DNA. There is nothing about the makeup of nucleotides and laws of matter that dictate what information is in the DNA.
There is no information in DNA. DNA is a series of molecules that cause a specific chemical cascade. Those molecules, in accord with the laws of physics, have no option but to react as required. The information is in the mind observing the regularity, the repeatability, of that cascade.
So the message itself is not made of anything, it is abstract.
The message is symbolized in the media, be that characters in clay or electrical impulses in crystals. That symbology only has meaning as agreed by those using the symbology and that meaning, abstract as it may seem, is embodied in the physical media of the mind.
the message is a particular arrangement of matter (or energy), but that arrangement of matter is not dependent on any law relative to that matter. The arrangement of the matter, how the matter got to be in whatever position it is, is not determined by any law of matter.
I don't think you meant that.
Of course the arrangement of matter/energy must and can only be as allowed and constrained by physics. There is no other known power in the universe that can order/form/constrain particles and forces other than the laws of physics.
Again, the message is not in the matter but is in the interpretation of the symbology embodied in the matter.
Loose, inaccurate human syntax allows for saying the media contains a message, contains some information, when, in fact, the media contains only the symbols representing that information that can only be comprehended in a mind that agrees to the meaning of the symbols.

Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by WookieeB, posted 05-23-2020 4:18 AM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by WookieeB, posted 05-25-2020 4:30 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 214 of 452 (876597)
05-23-2020 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by GDR
05-23-2020 2:06 PM


The reality is the information/data.
No. Reality is the matter/energy of which the universe is made.
In order to observe there has to be something to observe.
We observe the reality. Observation is not the reality. As jar would say (maybe) reality is the landscape; the result of observation is the map.
We observe the relationships between matter/energy and spacetime. In our minds we put measures to these relationships thus creating data, facts and information.
We hold in our minds this information giving definition to the relationships, approximating them in our mathematical notation and then calling them the laws of physics.
We create the data. We create the information. From these we then approximate the laws of the universe. And we can do so very accurately by refining the measures we use to form the data, facts and information from further observations.

Factio Republicana delenda est.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 217 of 452 (876603)
05-23-2020 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Richard L. Wang
05-23-2020 4:17 PM


Re: Re-PaulK(205): bioprocesses related to non-material elements
1+1=2 can be operated by electronic circuits in calculators or smartphones and biological circuits in our brains.
can calculators, smartphones or our brains perform this operation?
First you give a statement that 1+1=2 can be solved in calculators, smartphones and brains.
Then you ask if it can be solved in calculators, smartphones and brains.
If your statement is correct, and I can assure you it is, then the answer to the question is obvious and I see no utility in asking.
Why ask the question?

Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-23-2020 4:17 PM Richard L. Wang has replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 221 of 452 (876607)
05-23-2020 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Tangle
05-23-2020 4:27 PM


He possesses the only information available about the number of onions.
No the farmer is not the only one who has the information. In fact, the farmer no longer has the information.
The reality of the universe knows. That reality is that there are only 999 onions. This is the reality of the universe and by definition cannot be wrong.
All the information about the exact state of everything in the universe, including all mathematical and biological expressions and relationships, in perfect order with perfect accuracy exists in the ephemeral non-corporeal information ther that permeates all of spacetime and beyond.
Though the Universal Information ther is not accessible to any creature, sentient or otherwise, anywhere in the universe its foundation in reality assures its existence, omnipresence and its accuracy.
Think Q from Star Trek TNG.

Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Tangle, posted 05-23-2020 4:27 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Tangle, posted 05-24-2020 2:34 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 223 of 452 (876616)
05-24-2020 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Tangle
05-24-2020 2:34 AM


Only 991 more to go.

Factio Republicana delenda est.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 226 of 452 (876624)
05-24-2020 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by GDR
05-24-2020 12:19 PM


Matter and energy provide information/data that can be measured.
How do they do that? What form does this communication of information take?

Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by GDR, posted 05-24-2020 12:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by GDR, posted 05-24-2020 12:42 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 228 of 452 (876629)
05-24-2020 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by GDR
05-24-2020 12:42 PM


It is information/data that can be perceived, measured and interpreted.
I contend the information/data does not exist in the object. I contend the information/data does not exist until the object is perceived and measured within the mind. I contend the information/data is created and exists only in the mind.
Then the information can be analysed, interpreted and conclusions drawn.
The object is not even an onion field until a mind concludes it is an onion field regardless of what the configuration of the matter/energy may be.

Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by GDR, posted 05-24-2020 12:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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