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Author Topic:   NvC-1: What is the premise of Naturalism in Biology?
GDR
Member
Posts: 5373
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 211 of 257 (876594)
05-23-2020 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by ringo
05-23-2020 12:46 PM


ringo writes:

Dictionary definitions are often not adequate in scientific discussions.

Seems like you are channeling Lewis Caroll. "Words mean what I say they mean."

ringo writes:

Reality exists. Observations of reality (data) require on observer (perceiver).

In order to observe there has to be something to observe. The reality is the information/data.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by ringo, posted 05-23-2020 12:46 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Tangle, posted 05-23-2020 3:13 PM GDR has responded
 Message 214 by AZPaul3, posted 05-23-2020 4:12 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 224 by ringo, posted 05-24-2020 10:32 AM GDR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7620
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 212 of 257 (876595)
05-23-2020 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by GDR
05-23-2020 2:06 PM


GDR writes:

The reality is the information/data.

If the reality is the information, what happens when, having counted the onions in the field and determined that there are 1,000, the farmer walks away and a pig eats one of the onions?

The reality now is that there are now 999 onions but the information that the farmer created has stayed ay 1,000.

Unless the information changes as reality changes, they are independent.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by GDR, posted 05-23-2020 2:06 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by GDR, posted 05-23-2020 4:02 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5373
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 213 of 257 (876596)
05-23-2020 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Tangle
05-23-2020 3:13 PM


Tangle writes:

If the reality is the information, what happens when, having counted the onions in the field and determined that there are 1,000, the farmer walks away and a pig eats one of the onions?

The reality now is that there are now 999 onions but the information that the farmer created has stayed ay 1,000.

Unless the information changes as reality changes, they are independent.

Of course the information changes. It is simply updated data/information. However it does not change the fact that at an earlier point in time the data/information was that there were 1000 onions. (That brings a tear to the eye. ) For example the data/information is that right now the temperature is 18 degrees C. The data/information for 2 hours ago is that the temperature was i6 degrees. Data/information has a time component to it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Tangle, posted 05-23-2020 3:13 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Tangle, posted 05-23-2020 4:27 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4979
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 214 of 257 (876597)
05-23-2020 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by GDR
05-23-2020 2:06 PM


The reality is the information/data.

No. Reality is the matter/energy of which the universe is made.

In order to observe there has to be something to observe.

We observe the reality. Observation is not the reality. As jar would say (maybe) reality is the landscape; the result of observation is the map.

We observe the relationships between matter/energy and spacetime. In our minds we put measures to these relationships thus creating data, facts and information.

We hold in our minds this information giving definition to the relationships, approximating them in our mathematical notation and then calling them the laws of physics.

We create the data. We create the information. From these we then approximate the laws of the universe. And we can do so very accurately by refining the measures we use to form the data, facts and information from further observations.


Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by GDR, posted 05-23-2020 2:06 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Richard L. Wang
Member
Posts: 50
From: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Joined: 04-27-2020


Message 215 of 257 (876598)
05-23-2020 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by PaulK
05-22-2020 4:16 PM


Re-PaulK(205): bioprocesses related to non-material elements
During the past two decades, with the development of genome sequencing technology and computational methods, bioinformatics, molecular evolution, molecular genetics and genomics have made great progress. The progress of these disciplines deepens the fundamental understanding of basic biological processes, especially the biological evolution, and provides the foundation for their applications in many important fields. In the recent coronavirus pandemic, the analyses of the structures and variation of the covid-19 coronavirus RNA and the relationship with other coronavirus RNA occupy the center position in fighting against covid-19 coronavirus pandemic. All these subjects are included in empirical science, not abstract philosophy.
------

As for “the biological processes related to non-material elements don’t follow the natural laws”, consider an example, 1+1=2 can be operated by electronic circuits in calculators or smartphones and biological circuits in our brains. If only the natural laws play roles, can calculators, smartphones or our brains perform this operation? For reference only, let’s discuss it later.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by PaulK, posted 05-22-2020 4:16 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by AZPaul3, posted 05-23-2020 4:45 PM Richard L. Wang has responded
 Message 219 by PaulK, posted 05-23-2020 5:09 PM Richard L. Wang has responded
 Message 220 by PaulK, posted 05-23-2020 5:16 PM Richard L. Wang has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7620
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 216 of 257 (876599)
05-23-2020 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by GDR
05-23-2020 4:02 PM


GDR writes:

Of course the information changes.

The farmer's information - which he created (because the onions can't count) - does not change. He possesses the only information available about the number of onions.

is simply updated data/information.

How is the information updated? The farmer still thinks it's 1,000 and he's the only thing in the universe that knows it. Certainly the onions don't.

The object is not the information about the object. The two are independent. This is a very obvious point, why are you resisting it?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by GDR, posted 05-23-2020 4:02 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by AZPaul3, posted 05-23-2020 6:12 PM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4979
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 217 of 257 (876603)
05-23-2020 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Richard L. Wang
05-23-2020 4:17 PM


Re: Re-PaulK(205): bioprocesses related to non-material elements
1+1=2 can be operated by electronic circuits in calculators or smartphones and biological circuits in our brains.

can calculators, smartphones or our brains perform this operation?

First you give a statement that 1+1=2 can be solved in calculators, smartphones and brains.

Then you ask if it can be solved in calculators, smartphones and brains.

If your statement is correct, and I can assure you it is, then the answer to the question is obvious and I see no utility in asking.

Why ask the question?


Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-23-2020 4:17 PM Richard L. Wang has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 05-23-2020 4:53 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded
 Message 232 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-24-2020 3:30 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32508
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 218 of 257 (876604)
05-23-2020 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by AZPaul3
05-23-2020 4:45 PM


Re: Re-PaulK(205): bioprocesses related to non-material elements
Just checked and Alexa can also solve 1 + 1...

Why is this thread even open??????????????????????????????????


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16188
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 219 of 257 (876605)
05-23-2020 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Richard L. Wang
05-23-2020 4:17 PM


Re: Re-PaulK(205): bioprocesses related to non-material elements
quote:
As for “the biological processes related to non-material elements don’t follow the natural laws”, consider an example, 1+1=2 can be operated by electronic circuits in calculators or smartphones and biological circuits in our brains. If only the natural laws play roles, can calculators, smartphones or our brains perform this operation? For reference only, let’s discuss it later.

It seems to me that calculators can perform the operation and they do so because their components do follow natural law. Calculators are technology, not magic and technology relies on natural laws. Cellphones are more complex but they, too operate entirely according to natural law.

Indeed, carrying out addition through electronics is well understood:

Consider a simpler device, a player piano. You can wave a piece of sheet music at it all you like, it won’t make any difference. But if you supply the music in the form of a roll designed for that model of player piano, install it correctly and provide power, it will play the music. But it does so because the physical roll interacts with the components of the piano, according to natural law.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-23-2020 4:17 PM Richard L. Wang has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-24-2020 3:34 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16188
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 220 of 257 (876606)
05-23-2020 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Richard L. Wang
05-23-2020 4:17 PM


Re: Re-PaulK(205): bioprocesses related to non-material elements
quote:
In the recent coronavirus pandemic, the analyses of the structures and variation of the covid-19 coronavirus RNA and the relationship with other coronavirus RNA occupy the center position in fighting against covid-19 coronavirus pandemic. All these subjects are included in empirical science, not abstract philosophy.

Yes, naturalistic science functions perfectly well in this instance without any need for your philosophy. That is not exactly helpful to your argument.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-23-2020 4:17 PM Richard L. Wang has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4979
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 221 of 257 (876607)
05-23-2020 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Tangle
05-23-2020 4:27 PM


He possesses the only information available about the number of onions.

No the farmer is not the only one who has the information. In fact, the farmer no longer has the information.

The reality of the universe knows. That reality is that there are only 999 onions. This is the reality of the universe and by definition cannot be wrong.

All the information about the exact state of everything in the universe, including all mathematical and biological expressions and relationships, in perfect order with perfect accuracy exists in the ephemeral non-corporeal information æther that permeates all of spacetime and beyond.

Though the Universal Information Æther is not accessible to any creature, sentient or otherwise, anywhere in the universe its foundation in reality assures its existence, omnipresence and its accuracy.

Think Q from Star Trek TNG.


Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Tangle, posted 05-23-2020 4:27 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Tangle, posted 05-24-2020 2:34 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7620
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 222 of 257 (876614)
05-24-2020 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by AZPaul3
05-23-2020 6:12 PM



Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by AZPaul3, posted 05-23-2020 6:12 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by AZPaul3, posted 05-24-2020 6:56 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4979
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 223 of 257 (876616)
05-24-2020 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Tangle
05-24-2020 2:34 AM


Only 991 more to go.

Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Tangle, posted 05-24-2020 2:34 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18103
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 224 of 257 (876618)
05-24-2020 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by GDR
05-23-2020 2:06 PM


GDR writes:

Seems like you are channeling Lewis Caroll. "Words mean what I say they mean."


No. Words have different meanings in different contexts. In a precise context like science, you can not just interchange words willy-nilly.

GDR writes:

In order to observe there has to be something to observe. The reality is the information/data.


No. The reality is matter and energy. The data is the individual measurements. The information is the interpretation that gives the observations "meaning". That meaning depends on whether the observer is a human or an ant, etc. There is no inherent meaning in the matter and energy.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by GDR, posted 05-23-2020 2:06 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by GDR, posted 05-24-2020 12:19 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5373
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 225 of 257 (876623)
05-24-2020 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by ringo
05-24-2020 10:32 AM


ringo writes:

There is no inherent meaning in the matter and energy.

Nobody ever said there was meaning. Matter and energy provide information/data that can be measured.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by ringo, posted 05-24-2020 10:32 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by AZPaul3, posted 05-24-2020 12:30 PM GDR has responded
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 05-25-2020 12:13 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
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