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Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 104 From: Ottawa, ON, Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: NvC-1: What is the premise of Naturalism in Biology? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: I'm saying that humans interpret the information they discover.
What you're saying is that humans manufacture information. They don't "discover" it.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: I was quoting your use of humans. Are you saying that prior to human existence nothing existed? You keep mentioning humans. Without humans there is no information.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: It is object of the information that we perceive.
Correct, we create the name of the plant and that becomes information about that plant. Of course without the plant I can't create information about it but the plant is not the information, it's the object of the information. Tangle writes: That's not the same thing though as something physical like a daffodil. Certainly we as sentient beings can create new information. A host of golden daffodils was the creation of a human mind that was wandering as lonely as a cloud, not the creation of the object that Wordworth's mind came upon.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: ..but if the information wasn't there we couldn't perceive it. Our perception interprets the information.
Yup. Exactly. Our perception creates the information about the daffodil. We perceive daffodils as a yellow flower on a green stem. That's the daffodil's basic information. Tangle writes: Once again, it is that the observer perceived or interpreted the information differently. Now suppose that the observer is colour blind and sees daffodils as uniform grey. What has happened to the daffodil's information, has it changed? Or has the observer created different information about the daffodil?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
AZPaul3 writes: It isn't a case of where it is, it just exists. It exists in the same way that mathematical formulas exist. It is where to be gathered? In what form is this information before it is gathered?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stile writes: I think that maybe you are saying is that what we arguing depends on our understanding of the term "information" and also that the argument is philosophical and not scientific. If we take multiple measurements across vast amounts of time, and the grass is always 530nm... this lends confidence to the following assumptions:The grass "was 530nm" before we measured it The grass "will remain 530nm" after we measure it The grass "was always" 530nm and we only identified it at some point and became aware of it -whatever part of that you want to call "information" doesn't really matter-the grass is what it is -our measurement of the grass is what it is -our perception of the grass (individually or in groups) is what it is -our perceptions and measurements always include certain assumptions and it's wise for us to not confuse such assumptions with the grass "being whatever it is." In my case I contend that information exists without the perception of sentient life. I would even say that it exists outside of our perceived universe. I would like to point out that if I am right it does NOT support any particular religious belief, nor does it preclude atheistic belief. On the other hand, what it does do though is go against strict materialism. It does mean that there is something beyond the material world. In some ways it is the same discussion about what is an idea. You can scan the brain of someone taking a walk, as they decide whether to turn right or left. You can observe the physical effects on the brain but you can't tell whether the walker decided right or left until they you actually see them turn.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stile writes: Why does grass being-what-it-is go against strict materialism? (not that I believe in strict materialism... but the question remains...)Isn't grass a material that fits directly within strict materialism? Why can't grass exist without sentient life perceiving it? If grass can exist without sentient life perceiving it - how does this lend credence to the idea that God might exist, or something that isn't strictly materialist? Don't you end up with the same issue as before: God may exist without anyone believing in Him, or He may not exist at all? The point is simply that the world does have information, such as the colour of a daffodils, or the law of gravity that exists as information even if not perceived by sentient life. If I am correct I am not saying that it lends credence to God's existence, but I suppose that makes room for a non-physical intelligence outside of what we perceive. I do wonder how the "observer principle" fits into this but again that is well above my pay grade. I agree that God may exist without anyone believing in Him, or He may not exist as all.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
dwise1 writes: No, that is not information, but rather that is data. Data is not information. Data is information.Here is the definition of data from this web site. Definition of Data It defines data. quote:The mind simply interprets data or information. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: I was taught that data was a collection of observations and information is data that has been analyzed, interpreted, etc. so that it "means" something.The raw data is a perception of reality and the information is an interpretation of the perception. All in the mind. Again, here is the dictionary definition.
quote: The first word they go to is "information" to define data. Would you agree that data exists without it being perceived? Edited by GDR, : No reason given.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: Seems like you are channeling Lewis Caroll. "Words mean what I say they mean."
Dictionary definitions are often not adequate in scientific discussions. ringo writes: In order to observe there has to be something to observe. The reality is the information/data. Reality exists. Observations of reality (data) require on observer (perceiver).He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Of course the information changes. It is simply updated data/information. However it does not change the fact that at an earlier point in time the data/information was that there were 1000 onions. (That brings a tear to the eye. ) For example the data/information is that right now the temperature is 18 degrees C. The data/information for 2 hours ago is that the temperature was i6 degrees. Data/information has a time component to it. If the reality is the information, what happens when, having counted the onions in the field and determined that there are 1,000, the farmer walks away and a pig eats one of the onions? The reality now is that there are now 999 onions but the information that the farmer created has stayed ay 1,000. Unless the information changes as reality changes, they are independent.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: Nobody ever said there was meaning. Matter and energy provide information/data that can be measured. There is no inherent meaning in the matter and energy.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
AZPaul3 writes: It is information/data that can be perceived, measured and interpreted. How do they do that? What form does this communication of information take?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
AZPaul3 writes: This sounds something like the observer principle in QM, so now we are once again way beyond my pay grade. Maybe you can help me out here Ben. The object is not even an onion field until a mind concludes it is an onion field regardless of what the configuration of the matter/energy may be. Are you saying then that we require a non-physical consciousness to create data/information?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I’m not sure how much I can actually add to this that I haven’t already said. It is a view that seems reasonable to me but I know that as an endorsement that doesn’t add anything to its credibility.
Came across this site and thought that it pertained what we are talking about. It is from psychology Today and I realize that psychology seems to be something that materialists don’t have a lot of use for, but I think that it is worth considering. What if Consciousness Comes First?Here are a couple of quotes from the article. quote: quote:It does appear to me that this view does make sense of our world in so many ways. I know there will be more detractors than those who will consider it. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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