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Author Topic:   NvC-1: What is the premise of Naturalism in Biology?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 316 of 452 (877110)
06-04-2020 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Richard L. Wang
06-04-2020 12:52 PM


Re: Re-Tangle(310): understand the facts first
RLW writes:
The conclusion is drawn from the analyses of facts.
You have already concluded that some random things like language and maths don't follow natural laws. Unless you know of a third possibility - apart from you being wrong of course - the conclusion is supernatural. Is it not?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-04-2020 12:52 PM Richard L. Wang has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 317 of 452 (877115)
06-04-2020 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Richard L. Wang
06-04-2020 12:51 PM


Re: Re-AZPaul3(309): natural laws cannot govern and produce info-content
English vocabulary and grammar, and has nothing to do with Maxwell equation of electromagnetic field. Information and information-carrier obey different rules.
As an external physical *copy* your Hamlet cannot be made of anything but the matter/energy that is this universe and is, therefore, subject to the whims and fancies of any and all physical laws.
The original story, Hamlet the play, *only* manifests in the mind. It was determined by the physical embellishments and the limitations of the physics of Shakespeare's physical mind. Physics, as the base of Shakespeare's emergent mind and creativity, created Hamlet. No one can show there was any other force involved.
Both the information and its carrier are made of the same stuff and obey the same rules.
Like any other abstraction Hamlet or "Ride of the Valkyries" or the DNA code all are symbolic creations born of the human mind. That human mind is an emergent property of the physics of the brain and as such is created by and must bow to the dictates of physics.
Yes, Richard, English vocabulary, grammar, syntax, creativity, as well as the original content of all information are indeed subject to Maxwell’s equations and to Einstein’s and to Schrdinger’s.
Physics does in fact determine and govern, not just the existence, but the very content of all information.
The original content of any and every *bit* of information is in the mind. All the info-content of the entire universe is indeed dependent on and is governed by the natural laws. Even as powerful as imagination is, no matter how creative we may be, no one can show where information or ideas or content of any kind can exist beyond the limits imposed by the physics of this universe.
Organisms live on purpose due to that they contain non-material elements.
No they don't. They just are, like Taq's rocks, physical structures following physical laws. One just happens to be a bit more active at neighborhood parties than the other.
There is no such thing as a non-material element. Your genetic code may be a symbolic abstraction, a symbolic representation of an underlying physical phenomenon, but it is embodied in the physics of the mind. Ideas, abstractions, symbols are *not* non-material. Their materiality is in the physics of the mind.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-04-2020 12:51 PM Richard L. Wang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-05-2020 3:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 318 of 452 (877128)
06-05-2020 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Richard L. Wang
06-04-2020 12:50 PM


Re: Re-Taq(308): explain one question, please
RLW writes:
The rocks’ photo has nothing to do with what we discussed about.
It has EVERYTHING to do with we are discussing. There is no natural law that says a rock must have a specific shape or a specific composition. This is just like tRNAs. The shape and composition of a rock is the result of historical contingencies and natural laws, and the very same thing is true of tRNAs and the genetic code.
Well, please explain one of my questions, for example, 1+1=2, or The natural laws cannot explain why the liquid in river is called as WATER in English, but EAU in French.
Why can't natural laws explain those? This is your claim, you need to support it with evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-04-2020 12:50 PM Richard L. Wang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-05-2020 3:12 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 319 of 452 (877129)
06-05-2020 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Richard L. Wang
06-04-2020 12:52 PM


Re: Re-Tangle(310): understand the facts first
RLW writes:
The conclusion is drawn from the analyses of facts.
You haven't offered any facts. All you do is assert that something can't be produced by natural laws without any facts to back it.
My conclusion is that God created life on Earth and gave life the ability to survive and evolve.
Based on what evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-04-2020 12:52 PM Richard L. Wang has not replied

  
Richard L. Wang
Member (Idle past 1345 days)
Posts: 104
From: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Joined: 04-27-2020


Message 320 of 452 (877147)
06-05-2020 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by PaulK
06-04-2020 1:08 PM


Re-PaulK(315): natural laws or special devices?
I wrote in RLW(Message 285): If you input numbers 3 and 2 into a calculator. The results for the operations +, -, * and / are 5, 1, 6 and 1.5, respectively. No matter what operation the calculator does, every step follows natural laws. Why are the results different? Because electronic signals go through different electronic circuits for different operations. Therefore, the math operation rules embodied in the electronic circuits or electronic devices. The electronic devices of these math operations are designed according to the rules of logical circuits rather than natural laws. Of course, the operation of electronic signals in logical circuits follows natural laws.
So, what is the answer to the question Why are the results different for different operations +, -, * and /?
Answer 1: because all these operations follow the natural laws.
Answer 2: because different operations go through different logical circuits.
As for the translation process, what is the answer to the question why codon AAA on mRNA corresponds to amino acid Lys, while codon AAU on mRNA to Asn?
Answer 1: because the translation process follows the natural laws.
Answer 2: because the Genetic Code is embodied in tRNAs. The tRNA with anticodon UUU (H-bonded with the complementary codon AAA on the mRNA) has an acceptor stem connected to amino acid Lys, and the tRNA with anticodon UUA (H-bonded with the complementary codon AAU on mRNA) has an acceptor stem connected to amino acid Asn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by PaulK, posted 06-04-2020 1:08 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by PaulK, posted 06-05-2020 3:18 PM Richard L. Wang has not replied

  
Richard L. Wang
Member (Idle past 1345 days)
Posts: 104
From: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Joined: 04-27-2020


Message 321 of 452 (877148)
06-05-2020 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by AZPaul3
06-04-2020 5:54 PM


Re-AZPaul3(317): Do info-carrier and info-content follow the same rules: natural laws
Suppose John keeps a copy of Hamlet written by Shakespeare, which his grandfather bought 100 years ago. More than 100 years later, the papers on which his book was printed turned yellow due to an oxidation reaction, but the script Hamlet is still the original script, exactly the same as 100 years ago, with no sentences, no words, no letters changed. This means that the carrier of the information - paper — does follow the natural laws, but information itself — the script Hamlet - does not follow the natural laws at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by AZPaul3, posted 06-04-2020 5:54 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by AZPaul3, posted 06-05-2020 6:44 PM Richard L. Wang has replied

  
Richard L. Wang
Member (Idle past 1345 days)
Posts: 104
From: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Joined: 04-27-2020


Message 322 of 452 (877149)
06-05-2020 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Taq
06-05-2020 10:37 AM


Re-Taq(318)&PaulK(315): natural laws cannot explain language and tRNA
The vocabulary of a language is a common agreement of the population who use the language. The recently prevalent coronavirus, known as COVID-19, is named by WHO. Many professional words are named by special professional committee. Imagine that in an ancient English speaking population, someone pointed to the liquid in a river and at the same time pronounced WATER, and others accepted it, then WATER means the liquid in river. The same thing happened for the ancient French speaking population, but the person pointed to the liquid in a river and at the same time pronounced EAU.
As for the Genetic Code or the tRNA that embodied it , as the authors of the review paper Origin and evolution of the genetic code: The universal enigma pointed out, despite extensive and, in many cases, elaborate attempts to model code optimization, ingenious theorizing along the lines of the coevolution theory, and considerable experimentation, very little definitive progress has been made. It seems that the two-pronged fundamental question: ‘Why is the genetic code the way it is and how did it come to be?’, that was asked over 50 years ago, at the dawn of molecular biology, might remain pertinent even in another 50 years.
Therefore, the meaning of a word is assigned by common agreement, not due to the word itself. This is very easy to understand from the information point of view. The meaning of a word has nothing to do with natural laws. If one tries to use natural laws to study why the liquid in river is called as WATER in English, but EAU in French, she/he will never find the answer, because natural laws has nothing to do with the meaning of a language’s word. Obviously, the translation from WATER in English to EAU in French or vice versa has nothing to do with natural laws.
The same is true of the Genetic Code or tRNA, which is a bioinformatic process, that does not follow the natural laws. As I wrote in RLW(Message 306): The development of science and technology in the future cannot provide any new concepts, theories or experimental means. A simple fact is that tRNA contains the info-content: the translation from genetic-information to amino-acid-information, which is not governed by the natural laws.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Taq, posted 06-05-2020 10:37 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Taq, posted 06-05-2020 4:32 PM Richard L. Wang has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 323 of 452 (877151)
06-05-2020 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Richard L. Wang
06-05-2020 3:04 PM


Re: Re-PaulK(315): natural laws or special devices?
quote:
So, what is the answer to the question Why are the results different for different operations +, -, * and /?
Answer 1: because all these operations follow the natural laws.
Answer 2: because different operations go through different logical circuits.
This seems a pretty pointless question, not least because answer 1 is an obvious strawman - although I must point out that the circuits only work because they obey physical laws But also because answer 2 doesn’t get us anywhere, unless it’s sole purpose is to ignore the fact that it is the physical circuits obeying natural law that do the real work. The logical circuits are simply higher level descriptions of the physical circuits used for convenience.
quote:
As for the translation process, what is the answer to the question why codon AAA on mRNA corresponds to amino acid Lys, while codon AAU on mRNA to Asn?
Answer 1: because the translation process follows the natural laws.
Answer 2: because the Genetic Code is embodied in tRNAs. The tRNA with anticodon UUU (H-bonded with the complementary codon AAA on the mRNA) has an acceptor stem connected to amino acid Lys, and the tRNA with anticodon UUA (H-bonded with the complementary codon AAU on mRNA) has an acceptor stem connected to amino acid As
And this is just a repeat of the same errors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-05-2020 3:04 PM Richard L. Wang has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 324 of 452 (877154)
06-05-2020 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Richard L. Wang
06-05-2020 3:12 PM


Re: Re-Taq(318)&PaulK(315): natural laws cannot explain language and tRNA
RLW writes:
The vocabulary of a language is a common agreement of the population who use the language. The recently prevalent coronavirus, known as COVID-19, is named by WHO. Many professional words are named by special professional committee. Imagine that in an ancient English speaking population, someone pointed to the liquid in a river and at the same time pronounced WATER, and others accepted it, then WATER means the liquid in river. The same thing happened for the ancient French speaking population, but the person pointed to the liquid in a river and at the same time pronounced EAU.
All of this is the product of natural brains operating through natural processes.
As for the Genetic Code or the tRNA that embodied it , as the authors of the review paper Origin and evolution of the genetic code: The universal enigma pointed out, despite extensive and, in many cases, elaborate attempts to model code optimization, ingenious theorizing along the lines of the coevolution theory, and considerable experimentation, very little definitive progress has been made. It seems that the two-pronged fundamental question: ‘Why is the genetic code the way it is and how did it come to be?’, that was asked over 50 years ago, at the dawn of molecular biology, might remain pertinent even in another 50 years.
Not knowing the exact history of a process does not mean it violates natural laws. Do you know what an argument from ignorance is?
Therefore, the meaning of a word is assigned by common agreement, not due to the word itself. This is very easy to understand from the information point of view. The meaning of a word has nothing to do with natural laws.
Those words and agreements are the product of natural laws as described by neurobiology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-05-2020 3:12 PM Richard L. Wang has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 325 of 452 (877166)
06-05-2020 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Richard L. Wang
06-05-2020 3:07 PM


Re: Re-AZPaul3(317): Do info-carrier and info-content follow the same rules: natural laws
Come on, Richard, that's just a copy. And that copy is deteriorating. Hamlet is in your head ... which is also deteriorating.
No help for you there.
Physics is everything. Physics always rules.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-05-2020 3:07 PM Richard L. Wang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-08-2020 4:11 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Richard L. Wang
Member (Idle past 1345 days)
Posts: 104
From: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Joined: 04-27-2020


Message 326 of 452 (877222)
06-08-2020 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by AZPaul3
06-05-2020 6:44 PM


Re-PaulK, Taq, AZPaul3: What physics can do, what physics cannot do
What can the natural laws or, the same, the laws of physics do? Two things —
- Define the interaction between matters, and
- Determine the structure, nature and behavior of matters.
Therefore, physics is everywhere. In addition to controlling the structure, nature and behavior of matters, all non-material elements in our spacetime are embodied in a certain form of matter, and therefore physics also controls all physicochemical processes of the carriers of all non-material elements.
However, physics is not everything, because physics only governs all physicochemical processes of matter, physics cannot govern all processes of non-material elements.
Physics cannot calculate numbers;
Physics has no sense of humor;
Physics cannot think, it does not know how to write messages for this Forum;
Physics has no purpose;
Physics cannot design any hardware and/or software;
Physics has no language function, because materials do not need to communicate with each other;
Physics cannot make decision as physics does not understand logic;
Physics cannot produce any non-material elements;
There are a lot, lot of rules, regulations and laws other than the laws of physics in the world:
2+3=5 and 2*3=6;
WATER in English is translated to EAU in French, or vice versa;
Encoding Hamlet for transmitting wirelessly and decoding for displaying on smartphone;
Translate genetic information AAA on mRNA to amino acid information Lys to make protein;
Software languages: JavaScript, Python, PHP, C++,

All these information processes, including bioinformatic processes, follow their own rules, not the natural laws.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by AZPaul3, posted 06-05-2020 6:44 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Taq, posted 06-08-2020 4:16 PM Richard L. Wang has replied
 Message 328 by PaulK, posted 06-08-2020 4:49 PM Richard L. Wang has replied
 Message 329 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2020 5:30 PM Richard L. Wang has not replied
 Message 330 by AZPaul3, posted 06-08-2020 5:55 PM Richard L. Wang has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 327 of 452 (877223)
06-08-2020 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Richard L. Wang
06-08-2020 4:11 PM


Re: Re-PaulK, Taq, AZPaul3: What physics can do, what physics cannot do
Richard L. Wang writes:
However, physics is not everything, because physics only governs all physicochemical processes of matter, physics cannot govern all processes of non-material elements.
Physics cannot calculate numbers;
Cavendish calculated the gravitational constant in his famous experiments. Maxwell and others were able to measure the permitivity and permiability of space which allowed them to calculate the speed of light. Einstein was able to calculate the distortion of spacetime due to velocity. You sure you know what you are talking about?
Physics has no sense of humor;
Physics is the underlying process that gives rise to humor. The brain is matter, after all.
Physics cannot think, it does not know how to write messages for this Forum;
Physics has no purpose;
Physics cannot design any hardware and/or software;
Physics has no language function, because materials do not need to communicate with each other;
Physics cannot make decision as physics does not understand logic;
Physics cannot produce any non-material elements;
Physics underlies neurobiology which produces all of those things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-08-2020 4:11 PM Richard L. Wang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-09-2020 3:16 PM Taq has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 328 of 452 (877224)
06-08-2020 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Richard L. Wang
06-08-2020 4:11 PM


Re: Re-PaulK, Taq, AZPaul3: What physics can do, what physics cannot do
Essentially all you have is assertions without any actual evidence.
So, let us look at genetic information, which is the one we know most about (for the others you always end up talking about the mind - and if you did not you’d have to concede the point)
The genetic information is entirely supervenient on the physical structure of the DNA. All changes to the information are made by changes to the DNA, and we have no evidence (even indirect evidence) of any violation of natural law in those changes. The translation process proceeds by chemistry, following natural law.
So, is there any reason to believe that any bioinformatic laws - at least with respect to DNA are simply higher level representations of processes founded in natural law, and that aspects not immediately dictated by natural law are the product of historical contingencies?
Remember also that natural laws do not have to produce deterministic behaviour. Spontaneous radioactive decay is predictable only statistically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-08-2020 4:11 PM Richard L. Wang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-09-2020 3:21 PM PaulK has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 329 of 452 (877226)
06-08-2020 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Richard L. Wang
06-08-2020 4:11 PM


Re: Re-PaulK, Taq, AZPaul3: What physics can do, what physics cannot do
RLW writes:
All these information processes, including bioinformatic processes, follow their own rules, not the natural laws.
And are therefore supernatural?
What are you trying not to say?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-08-2020 4:11 PM Richard L. Wang has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 330 of 452 (877227)
06-08-2020 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Richard L. Wang
06-08-2020 4:11 PM


Re: Re-PaulK, Taq, AZPaul3: What physics can do, what physics cannot do
Well this is easy. Taq and PaulK have already answered and did so well. I'll take the lazy way out and leave you with their Message 327 and Message 328.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Richard L. Wang, posted 06-08-2020 4:11 PM Richard L. Wang has not replied

  
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