Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 271 of 794 (877352)
06-13-2020 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Phat
06-13-2020 10:52 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Phat writes:
ALL Of The Apologists. Why?
Yes, at least every single Apologist that you have marketed. And the reason is simple; they market what they create instead of marketing what is actually written.
Phat writes:
I don't agree with your all-inclusive religion...I think it is heading towards a globalist consensus which I feel will be the wrong approach for humanity. Y
And still you show that either you have never read what I write or that you are incapable of comprehending what I have actually written.
I have never suggested any all inclusive religion and I doubt very much you even have a clue what consensus even means.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Phat, posted 06-13-2020 10:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 7:39 AM jar has replied
 Message 273 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 7:45 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 272 of 794 (877356)
06-14-2020 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by jar
06-13-2020 1:54 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
jar, on apologists writes:
And the reason is simple; they market what they create instead of marketing what is actually written.
Stop and think. Some believe that each writer "created" what they wrote. So how is it any different if a modern teacher interprets what they have beeen taught? And just because you claim to report word for word what is written, why should we believe what your interpretation of the book is? Very very few of us believe that God can ever lie. (I suppose He could, but why would He need to?) Yet you emphasize that teaching. So againl, why believe jar of Deep South Texas over our favorite apologist? The fact of the matter is that we dont believe the Bible as YOU market it because we know your beliefs that GOD is unknowable, likely does NOT favor humans over pond scum, is part of the great mystery of learning, inclusiveness, wonder of science, and not in communion with humanity. Jesus is part of mythos, not personal or approachable, not supernatural but simply commanding us humans to feed and clothe each other like good little humanists.
And again, I have no problem with doing what He said (in the book and perhaps in my heart) but I'll be struck dead before I believe that its all about mythos and that we can safely do good works while throwing God away. That is false and deceptive teaching and you will be judged for it some day.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jar, posted 06-13-2020 1:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 06-14-2020 7:57 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 273 of 794 (877357)
06-14-2020 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by jar
06-13-2020 1:54 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
jar writes:
And still you show that either you have never read what I write or that you are incapable of comprehending what I have actually written.
I have never suggested any all inclusive religion and I doubt very much you even have a clue what consensus even means.
You think i'm that stupid? I likely would dust your ego at any IQ test, old man! (sorry, I repent for my OWN Ego. )
But it annoys me that you think I am clueless as to what consensus means. You even explained it to me once, but I will look up the term just to make sure I DO understand. I wont compromise my beliefs. Yes, they are exclusive. Yes, Jesus is the only way. But Paul even said that he becomes all things for all people. (paraphrased) so I know how to approach people when discussing spirituality, humanism, Christianity, and religion. And thank God I dont believe as you do. Your world view is poison and part of the eventual problem that our planet will have to face. You are urging people to throw away the One thing that will help them And yes, ringo...we all are commanded to do good works, be it by the humanist charge, Jesus as character in a book, or Jesus as living in our hearts and minds. If I throw anything away, it is the deceptiveness of "evidence" that denies Christ. We are designed for Communion with the Creator of all seen and unseen. That does not absolve us of our responsibilities.
Edited by Phat, : spelling

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jar, posted 06-13-2020 1:54 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by ringo, posted 06-14-2020 1:22 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 274 of 794 (877358)
06-14-2020 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Phat
06-14-2020 7:39 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Phat writes:
So againl, why believe jar of Deep South Texas over our favorite apologist?
I don't ask you to believe me; but actually read what is written.
What is written in the tale found in Genesis 2&3?
Phat, people can read what is written. What you believe is totally irrelevant; it is what is actually written that determines what is actually not what the Apologists claim it really should have said.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 7:39 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 8:06 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 275 of 794 (877360)
06-14-2020 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by jar
06-14-2020 7:57 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
OK, I will agree with that. But the fact remains that you frame the argument based on logic assuming that GOD is unknowable and that we humans do not need Him. That is what I'm complaining about. Everyone should read the whole book.
I might suggest they pray that they will know the character behind the book whereas you may tell them that this is unnecessary...as I said before, you teach people that its ok to remain as they are whereas I teach them that they can be better and do better through Holy Communion. Have you ever read the Bible, jar? Perhaps you can agree with me on what Holy Communion is and why it is (or is not) necessary. Perhaps you would approve of throwing that away too.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 06-14-2020 7:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 06-14-2020 8:50 AM Phat has replied
 Message 281 by ringo, posted 06-14-2020 1:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 276 of 794 (877361)
06-14-2020 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Phat
06-14-2020 8:06 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Phat writes:
But the fact remains that you frame the argument based on logic assuming that GOD is unknowable and that we humans do not need Him.
No Phat, I ask you and others to explain how they could know GOD. And the next part is even more important. We have been told what to do; so why do we want GOD to do what we are supposed to be doing?
Phat writes:
Perhaps you can agree with me on what Holy Communion is and why it is (or is not) necessary.
Holy Communion is a Rite Phat. It is a Rite for humans administered by humans. And it is not necessary.
But have you read the text of the Rite? It is all about what we should do; to prepare for taking part, during participation and after we complete the Rite.
But then you may be using the term Holy Communion in the format of the Apologists in which case it is for YOU to explain what it is and why it is (or is not) necessary. No Apologist has ever been able to do so but give it a try.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 8:06 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 12:28 PM jar has replied
 Message 284 by ICANT, posted 06-14-2020 3:50 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 277 of 794 (877362)
06-14-2020 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by jar
06-14-2020 8:50 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
I am just waking up. Its 11 AM Sunday and I work in a couple of hours. Thank God I have a job during these challenging times! Online church is available, but I can listen now anytime due to current necessity and technology. Communion is, in part, a gathering of club members honoring our unity with Jesus Christ whom we believe lives eternally as God(or technically at the right hand of God, but I interpret this to be that Jesus IS God's hand...literally the Body of God. According to tradition, we believers are the Body and Jesus is the Head. Yes, it's symbolic but here is where we humans muck it up. You will (and have) argued that God chooses all of us to be His Body (symbolically or actually) doing the works which He commanded. I will go with that for now, for I will not argue that only those who believe will be saved (or accepted into that Body symbolically or actually, though you can see my point that transformation is necessary. The human need not be forced to change but should want to change were they to value the conscience of the Head of said Body...which is Jesus Christ.
I ask you and others to explain how they could know GOD.
Yes, I know. Paul lays it out in Romans. Apologists market the Romans Road to salvation and I can find a link, for those so interested...but you will of course ask me to go deeper. Likely in support of your personal belief, you will frame the argument in terms of what we do versus what we read or believe.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 06-14-2020 8:50 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by jar, posted 06-14-2020 12:43 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 278 of 794 (877363)
06-14-2020 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Phat
06-14-2020 12:28 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Phat writes:
Communion is, in part, a gathering of club members honoring our unity with Jesus Christ whom we believe lives eternally as God(or technically at the right hand of God, but I interpret this to be that Jesus IS God's hand...literally the Body of God.
Once again, you are creating the story that YOU want. Instead of believing what is actually written you are interpreting to make the story fit YOUR creation.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 12:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 12:53 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 279 of 794 (877365)
06-14-2020 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by jar
06-14-2020 12:43 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Maybe so, but I don't see Jesus and God as two separate entities. Everyone creates the belief that they "want" or understand based on what they learn. You claim that communion is a rite and is unnecessary when Jesus clearly says in the book to "do this in remembrance of me". You may create the idea in your head that Jesus is mythos and simply a character in the book and that we are charged (by humans of course who created that charge) to feed, clothe, encourage, and shelter the needy.
You and ringo switch back and forth between saying that the source is unnecessary and that humans define the content...to pointing out the source in the book when it suits your argument. So now that I point out what Jesus said to do regarding communion, you will likely refer back to the content of an established club in communion through community projects which don't really require any communion apart from the humans involved. I will say that you are mistaken in throwing away the source and doing the content in and of itself. Again, transformation is necessary.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by jar, posted 06-14-2020 12:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by ringo, posted 06-14-2020 1:33 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 283 by jar, posted 06-14-2020 2:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 286 by ICANT, posted 06-14-2020 4:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 280 of 794 (877368)
06-14-2020 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Phat
06-14-2020 7:45 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Phat writes:
And yes, ringo...we all are commanded to do good works, be it by the humanist charge, Jesus as character in a book, or Jesus as living in our hearts and minds. If I throw anything away, it is the deceptiveness of "evidence" that denies Christ.
But YOU are the one who denies Christ by denying His message.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 7:45 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 281 of 794 (877369)
06-14-2020 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Phat
06-14-2020 8:06 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Phat writes:
Everyone should read the whole book.
Not "the whole book". ALL of the books - and not with the assumption that they are all perfectly compatible.
Phat writes:
... I teach them that they can be better and do better through Holy Communion.
But we know that isn't true.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 8:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 282 of 794 (877370)
06-14-2020 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Phat
06-14-2020 12:53 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Phat writes:
You and ringo switch back and forth between saying that the source is unnecessary and that humans define the content...to pointing out the source in the book when it suits your argument.
When I point out that the book disagrees with you, I am pointing out that YOU throw the book away when you don't like what it says. That is not ME going "back and forth".

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 12:53 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 283 of 794 (877379)
06-14-2020 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Phat
06-14-2020 12:53 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
We point out what the Bible says when you try to claim it means something else Phat.
We don't say that a source is unnecessary; we say that the source is irrelevant and it is the CONTENT that is significant.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 12:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by ICANT, posted 06-14-2020 3:55 PM jar has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 284 of 794 (877380)
06-14-2020 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by jar
06-14-2020 8:50 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Hi jar,
jar writes:
But have you read the text of the Rite? It is all about what we should do; to prepare for taking part, during participation and after we complete the Rite.
But then you may be using the term Holy Communion in the format of the Apologists in which case it is for YOU to explain what it is and why it is (or is not) necessary. No Apologist has ever been able to do so but give it a try.
I find very little you say that I agree with, but I have to agree that communion which I call the Lord's Supper is not necessary.
I also agree it is about the preparation to participate that is most important.
Let me give it a go as to " what it is and why it is (or is not) necessary." (jar).
First thing it was given to His disciples.
quote:
1 Corinthians 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.
This is a Church ordinance given to the Lord's Church, as the apostles and disciples were the only ones present when it was observed for the first time.
In the above verses Paul teaches the Church at Corinth how they are supposed to partake of the Lord's Supper.
The first thing they were to do was to judge themselves. If there was sin in their life they were to repent, and ask forgiveness before taking of the Lord's Supper. I call it the "Lord's Supper" because He instituted this particular event.
To answer your question, "what is it?" It is an event started by Jesus about 15 hours before He was nailed to the Cross. That is supposed to be observed in remembrance of His death, burial, and resurrection. There was no set time or amount of times it was to be observed. It was to be done only in remembrance of Him, as often as we did it.
Paul told them many were weak, sick, and some dead because they had partaken and were unworthy to partake.
At our Church we celebrate Easter every First Day of the week, as that is Resurrection Day. But we do not partake of the Lord's Supper every week.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 06-14-2020 8:50 AM jar has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 285 of 794 (877381)
06-14-2020 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by jar
06-14-2020 2:42 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Hi jar,
jar writes:
We don't say that a source is unnecessary; we say that the source is irrelevant and it is the CONTENT that is significant.
Then the CONTENT of what is significant?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 06-14-2020 2:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 06-14-2020 5:29 PM ICANT has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024