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Author Topic:   Hitch is dead
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 513 of 560 (876284)
05-16-2020 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by Phat
05-16-2020 11:12 AM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:
Do you mean the flood in the book? How well do you know this character?
We know that your fantasy is that you know "the real God" better than anybody else does, better than atheists, better than the people who wrote the Book. That just reinforces the conclusion that your God is entirely made up.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Phat, posted 05-16-2020 11:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 05-16-2020 3:00 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 515 of 560 (876294)
05-16-2020 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by Phat
05-16-2020 3:00 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:
And yet you and many atheists have already concluded that "My" God and the "God" described by many Christians is made up.
As I said, that conclusion is based on what YOU say.
Phat writes:
I would counter charge that you and many others will be in fact living a delusion.
But you have nothing to back up that claim. You might just as well say that people who don't believe in the Three Bears are delusional.
Phat writes:
Wake up and smell the coffee!
Don't be arrogant. You've said yourself that there is no smell, no taste, no evidence at all that there is coffee I am missing out on. You have even scoffed at the idea that coffee could have a smell.
Phat writes:
Watch the news. Listen to some of the plans being discussed to track humanity....
There have always been dangers.
Phat writes:
Would you really prefer a world of socialists who claim a sort of brotherly love for each other and the planet (without religion)?
Like Jesus?
Phat writes:
Do you actually think that is humanly possible?
The evidence shows that it is.
Phat writes:
What does past evidence show in every previous form of government?
That the socialist form is best for the common man.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 05-16-2020 3:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 527 of 560 (877113)
06-04-2020 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 526 by GDR
06-04-2020 12:00 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:
However there is no scientific evidence that the processes themselves had a mindless origin.
You have it backwards. There is no scientific evidence that the processes themseves
had a mind as an origin.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by GDR, posted 06-04-2020 12:00 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 528 by GDR, posted 06-04-2020 5:28 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 530 by Phat, posted 06-05-2020 12:57 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 534 of 560 (877152)
06-05-2020 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 530 by Phat
06-05-2020 12:57 PM


Re: In The Beginning? Certainly Not Chemicals
Phat writes:
No, but the idea that in the beginning was chemicals is just plain silly.
That's a silly thing to say. We know there ARE chemicals. Why on earth is it silly to think they were around in "the beginning"?
Phat writes:
... it makes far less intrinsic sense than does the premise of a mind as the origin of all.
It makes far MORE "intrinsic" sense to think in terms of what we DO know - e.g. chemicals - than what we DON'T know - e.g. some spooky "mind". Every mind that we DO know about is made of chemicals.
You're welcome to believe whatever bullshit you like but don't try to pretend that it "makes more sense" than reality. That won't fly here.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by Phat, posted 06-05-2020 12:57 PM Phat has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 540 of 560 (877190)
06-07-2020 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 535 by Phat
06-05-2020 4:47 PM


Re: Historical and/or Fiction
Phat writes:
I DO know God better than the atheists do. All they know is what was written about God.
That's all that is possible to know. Your claims of "communion" are arrogant and empty.
Phat writes:
I DO NOT claim to know the book better than the authors.
Yes you do. The authors did not claim that their writing was part of one cohesive whole. You do.
Phat writes:
You can't claim that God is limited to a character in the book and then turn around and charge the character with committing atrocities, claiming to prove the motive of that character.
Why not? How is it inconsistent to point out that the ONLY information we have about Him includes information that He committed atrocities?
Phat writes:
You waffle back and forth, don't you? You use something written in the book when it supports your argument, yet dismiss other things as apologetic fantasies.
The Book says that God created the heavens and the earth and it says He committed the Flood atrocity. There's no waffling about that. It's the apologists who try to waffle Him into a wholly good God despite the atrocities.
Phat writes:
But you don't think that God is even necessary, do you?
The evidence shows that He is not.
Phat writes:
We have no evidence that God Himself committed any crimes.
This is not about a fictional God committing fictional crimes. It's about where your beliefs come from. You don't accept the Bible accounts and you don't accept reality. Your beliefs are entirely man-made.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
And then you can give us a valid rationale for throwing out most of the New Testament too.
I dont recall throwing any of it out.
You reject what Jesus told the rich man about what he must do to be saved. You reject the story about the Roman church doing it.
Phat writes:
Why should we trust your teaching skills?
I have never even suggested that you should trust what I say. I have told you repeatedly to read what it SAYS.
Phat writes:
Anybody can read word for word what a book says.
Then do it.
Phat writes:
It takes a good teacher to suggest a deeper meaning.
Or a liar. Why are you afraid to discuss the apologists' lies?
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Why would the creator of all things seen and unseen have any interest in you?
John 3:16 for starters.
If "God so loved the world", why did He destroy it with the Flood?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by Phat, posted 06-05-2020 4:47 PM Phat has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 543 of 560 (877350)
06-13-2020 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by GDR
06-12-2020 5:33 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:
The resurrected Jesus was a physical being.
So were the Three Bears - but they were fictional physical beings. That's not a close connection to real physical beings.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by GDR, posted 06-12-2020 5:33 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by GDR, posted 06-13-2020 7:25 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 547 of 560 (877366)
06-14-2020 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by GDR
06-13-2020 7:25 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:
... it does show that we can't say the resurrection accounts can be classified in the same way as accounts intended as fictional.
The authors' supposed intentions are not a major factor in deciding whether an account IS fictional. We classify an account as fictional if it fails to meet the standards of reality.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by GDR, posted 06-13-2020 7:25 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by GDR, posted 06-14-2020 5:00 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 548 of 560 (877367)
06-14-2020 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by Phat
06-14-2020 8:00 AM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Phat writes:
... there are basically two different kinds of spirits.
Spirits are fictional. You can make up as many kinds ad you want.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 8:00 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 2:02 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 550 of 560 (877374)
06-14-2020 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 549 by Phat
06-14-2020 2:02 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Phat writes:
... you cant stand on a claim that has not been proven or disproved.
Yes I can. Without evidence, the default is that it doesn't exist. You use the same standard for Tooth Fairies, leprechauns, etc. so don't try to claim special privilege for your pet beliefs.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 2:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 2:18 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 552 of 560 (877376)
06-14-2020 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 551 by Phat
06-14-2020 2:18 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Phat writes:
There is only One God. You are free to attempt toi question it, disprove it, laugh at it or ignore it, but you wont force me to retract my claim.
Nobody's asking you to retract your claim. I'm just pointing out that your claim is invalid.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 2:18 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 2:30 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 557 of 560 (877392)
06-15-2020 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 554 by Phat
06-14-2020 2:30 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
Phat writes:
You dont get to determine validity except perhaps tentatively until more evidence is found.
Wrong. If there's a lack of evidence for the claim, the claim is invalid by default. That isn't "me" determining validity. That's how all thinking people determine validity, including you. Remember the claims about fairies and leprechauns? Without evidence, they're considered invalid, by even you.
Phat writes:
Unless of course the forum dismisses my personal experience as invalid.
Your INTERPRETATION of your experiences is dismissed as invalid - i.e. you have misinterpreted your experiences.
Phat writes:
I suppose you all could do that, though its not cricket.
Not only is it cricket, it's standard procedure.
Phat writes:
Evidence is only the default in the Science side of the Forum.
No. Evidence ALWAYS trumps belief.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by Phat, posted 06-14-2020 2:30 PM Phat has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 558 of 560 (877394)
06-15-2020 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 555 by GDR
06-14-2020 5:00 PM


Re: It is about sacrificial love
GDR writes:
The Gospels were written by either an eye witness or by someone with direct access to the eyewitnesses. They wrote what they believed to be historically accurate, even though there was in all likelihood some metaphor or hyperbole included in that. That has been agreed upon.
I don't know who has agreed to that. Not me. We're talking about "eyewitnesses" to events - e.g. the resurrection - that many of us don't believe ever happened.
You've already shot yourself in the foot by pointing out that fiction wasn't even invented until centuries later. The Gospel authors could not have "intended" to write non-fiction when there was not yet a clear distinction between fiction amd non-fiction.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by GDR, posted 06-14-2020 5:00 PM GDR has not replied

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