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Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 104 From: Ottawa, ON, Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: NvC-1: What is the premise of Naturalism in Biology? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Richard L. Wang Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 104 From: Ottawa, ON, Canada Joined: |
Can mutations add genetic information? Sure, otherwise, how does biological evolution work?
Can point mutations add genetic information, or produce meaningful genetic information? This is a question. Show experimental evidence, please.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: For a start the fact that there is no evidence of any guiding force behind mutations. Mutations occur without regard for whether they will be useful or not. Many are not or are even harmful. But really if you are going to claim the opposite you need evidence. Are we finally going to see you support your claims ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: This is the same question as can point mutations lose genetic information?. What’s your position on that?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
If you don't mind, let me give the Pauls some help. If you correlate biological fitness with information, here's an experimental example of where a mutation increases biological information.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irnc6w_Gsas What you are observing is a Markov Chain which is a second law of thermodynamics process. And of course, information and entropy are related.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
RLW writes: If all bioinformatic processes could be broken down into a series of chemical and physical processes, people would never know how the basic principle of genetic processes — to produce the right protein at the right time, right place and right quantity — works. Again, read up on the lac operon: The lac operon (article) | Gene regulation | Khan Academy It explains all of the physics and chemistry that allows for beta-lactamase to be expressed at the right time in the right place and in the right quantities.
In that section, I analyzed the transcription regulation of lac operon of E. coli, and demonstrated that the function of regulation is similar to logic circuits in digital circuits, or similar to IF sentences in software. Where do you demonstrate that the functioning of the lac operon doesn't follow natural laws?
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
RLW writes: Can point mutations add genetic information, or produce meaningful genetic information? This is a question. Show experimental evidence, please. Do the genetic differences between the chimp and human genomes give each species meaningful genetic information? Yep. Those are the mutations you are looking for.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
RLW writes: So, I suggest we change a topic, for example, mutations, Ok. Let's first look at transversion and transition mutations.
A transition is a point mutation where similar bases are switched out for each other. Cytosine and thymine have one ring while adenine and guanine have two rings. A transition is a switch between C and T or A and G. A transversion is a point mutation where dissimilar bases are switched out for one another, such as an A being switched out by a C or T. The proteins that copy DNA have a harder time distinguishing between similar bases as compared to dissimilar bases. Therefore, we should see more transitions than transversions. That's exactly what we see. Below is the per base human mutation rate for transitions and transversions taken from Kong et al. (2013): Transition at non-CpG 6.1810‘9Transversion at non-CpG 3.7610‘9 So transitions are about twice as common as transversions even though there are two possible transversions at each base compared to just one transition. These are de novo mutations measured in humans using genome sequence of parents and their offspring. In nature, we see exactly what we would expect to see from natural processes producing mutations. It goes even farther. There is another type of substitution mutation called a CpG mutation.
When there is a CG in a sequence the C is susceptible to methylation. Subsequent deamination of the methylated C results in a T. Let's include CpG mutations to our list from Kong et al. (2013): Transition at non-CpG 6.1810‘9Transition at CpG 1.1210‘7 Transversion at non-CpG 3.7610‘9 Transversion at CpG 9.5910‘9 Notice how the rate of CpG transitions is so much higher than the others. Again, this is the hallmark of naturally occurring point mutations. Are we on the same page so far? Edited by Taq, : No reason given. Edited by Taq, : No reason given. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
RLW writes:
Why? You don't understand how this changes the mathematics of DNA evolution. I've given you a link which introduces you to Markov models of DNA evolution: So, I suggest we change a topic, for example, mutations,Taq writes: Ok. Let's first look at transversion and transition mutations.Models of DNA evolution - Wikipedia The Jukes-Cantor model assumes the mutation rate for transversions and transitions are equal. The Kimura model takes into account that transversions and transitions have different mutation rates. But there is a fundamental assumption that is made when deriving these models that makes these models incorrect. You should study these models and try to figure out why. Then you might actually understand something about DNA evolution and the mathematics which governs this process.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: Why? You don't understand how this changes the mathematics of DNA evolution. You are wearing out your hobby horse.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman writes:
You don't even have a horse in this race. You should stick with posting in the "Coffee House" and "Faith and Belief" forums. You certainly don't have the mathematical skills to be posting in the "Is it Science" and "Biological Evolution" forums. If you did have any mathematical skills, you could explain the Jukes-Cantor and Kimura models of DNA evolution and the differences between those two models. And then you could explain how to apply these models to the Kishony Mega-plate experiment. But you don't have those skills.
Why? You don't understand how this changes the mathematics of DNA evolution.Taq writes: You are wearing out your hobby horse.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: You certainly don't have the mathematical skills to be posting in the "Is it Science" and "Biological Evolution" forums. So says the person who didn't know what exons and introns are. If you don't think my posts are worthy of comment then don't respond to them.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman writes:
If you think your understanding of exons and introns can explain the mathematics of DNA evolution, do it. And if you think your understanding of exons and introns can explain mutations and how they relate to genetic information, do it. You certainly don't have the mathematical skills to be posting in the "Is it Science" and "Biological Evolution" forumsTaq writes: So says the person who didn't know what exons and introns are. If you don't think my posts are worthy of comment then don't respond to them. You had a good start with your posts when you calculated 3e9 replication for a beneficial mutation to occur for the Kishony Mega-plate experiment but then you stopped attempting to understand. Instead, you bring up exons and introns which really have nothing to do with DNA evolution and genetic transformation or recombination which is related to genetic transformation (and therefore phenotype) but has little effect on DNA evolution (but you don't know why). But then you stop when I ask you to explain the mathematics of random recombination. Try studying a little harder and learn and understand the mathematics of genetic transformation and what genetic information is all about. You really don't understand this subject as well as you claim you do.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: If you think your understanding of exons and introns can explain the mathematics of DNA evolution, do it. And if you think your understanding of exons and introns can explain mutations and how they relate to genetic information, do it. In case you didn't notice, this isn't a topic on the math of population genetics. One of the signs of a crackpot is that they bring up the same stale topic no matter what the thread is about.
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Richard L. Wang Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 104 From: Ottawa, ON, Canada Joined: |
What is the connection between Mutations occur by natural law and Mutations occur without regard for whether they will be useful or not. Many are not or are even harmful?
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Richard L. Wang Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 104 From: Ottawa, ON, Canada Joined: |
I asked PaulK(Message 351) and AZPaul3(Message 356) to provide evidences that POINT mutations can produce genetic mutations. Maybe I should ask them for a little detail, that is, to ask them to provide evidences that POINT mutations can produce new genes, new enzymes, improved traits, or even new species, — which is meaningful new genetic information for biological evolution.
Taq(Message 366) wrote
quote:Yep, those are mutations, but can you provide evidences that those mutations resulted from POINT mutations?
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