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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
ringo
Member
Posts: 19520
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 301 of 673 (877432)
06-16-2020 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by Phat
06-15-2020 6:19 PM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
Phat writes:

Scripture tells us that signs and wonders follow those who believe...


Signs and wonders are testable, aren't they?

Phat writes:

... yet you will never honestly take the risk of believing without prior evidence.


Will you ever learn? Belief is only permissible when there is no evidence.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 06-15-2020 6:19 PM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 302 of 673 (877433)
06-16-2020 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by jar
06-16-2020 7:49 AM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
jar writes:

How did you change? What was the evidence of that transformation?

The initial change was of an inner certainty. All of the questions which you endlessly ask--and which I can never answer for you--were answered and resolved in my own mind and heart. At that time, I knew very little about the Bible or comparative religions or the history of religion, but I knew that I was extremely happy and content---for the first time without need of any drugs or any sexual relationships or any alcoholic drinks or anything else that I once relied on in an informal daily basis to calm me and get me through my days. I was not blissfully brainwashed into a cult so much as I was hungry to learn what knowing God even meant.

Granted the church I attended, and as I later found out organized evangelical Christianity in general was far from perfect. I will now admit that it can even be harmful as it is at its basic level exploitative. We used to always have a saying that there is no perfect church but there *is* a perfect God. God became knowable in the sense that if you really sought to know Him and get comfort, wisdom, and support from Him and His people, you truly could and would.
I have always been a bit of a rebel, however. I never fully trusted the church alone for my comfort, edification, and learning. I never would have fallen into belief in YEC, for example. It was just too silly and illogical to me...even though folk could sorta show that it was Biblical. And the questions that keep some of you from being respectful towards God and Christianity were no-brainers to me.

Such as:
Why does God save some and not all? Because not all want it. Perhaps even because not all need it (or think they dont, currently)

Now granted I became hooked on Christian radio and it was only through our discussions at EvC that I was able to wean off of that exclusively biased and jaded view of reality. I took off my rose-colored glasses and saw that yes, many of the top (popularity-wise) preachers and teachers in Christianity were quite obviously earning a comfortable living--which is not at all what Jesus would teach. I stared them in the face and realized that they were not sincere. It took awhile for me to become convinced, and by no means did I paint them all with the same broad brush. I became convinced that the key to being a noble and honest (and effective) Christian was in prayer, honesty, discipline and good works. ringo always accuses me of not doing what Jesus said, but I do...though I could always do more. I'm not quite strong enough nor persuaded to sell all that I have and await acceptance into the Kingdom.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by jar, posted 06-16-2020 7:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by jar, posted 06-16-2020 11:41 AM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19520
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 303 of 673 (877434)
06-16-2020 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by Phat
06-15-2020 10:44 PM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
Phat writes:

Thank God your "club" is in the minority.


You don't really believe that, do you?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 06-15-2020 10:44 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Phat, posted 06-16-2020 10:48 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 304 of 673 (877437)
06-16-2020 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by ringo
06-16-2020 10:26 AM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
Sure I do. Why cant he just admit that he isn't a believer since he claims that Jesus was a cultural mythos, that it is irrelevant anyway because Christianity is based only on humans following a message with no need of communion or transformation...yet he hangs on to that stupid club as a badge of honor telling him that he too is a Christian. At least you claim no such title.

I refuse to let his propaganda taint the traditions that we (most of us) have always believed and see reconfirmed every day. He wants to let everyone in the club and redefine the rules of acceptance. You dont get to simply say a slogan and promise to do the message and get accepted without dropping your bad habits at the door.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by ringo, posted 06-16-2020 10:26 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by ringo, posted 06-16-2020 11:18 AM Phat has replied
 Message 307 by jar, posted 06-16-2020 11:47 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19520
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 305 of 673 (877442)
06-16-2020 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Phat
06-16-2020 10:48 AM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
Phat writes:

Why cant he just admit that he isn't a believer...?


Why should we accept that YOU are a believer? I've asked you many times what it actually MEANS to "believe". (Does it mean to mouth Lord! Lord! to the messenger or does it mean to obey the message?) You never answer.

But I was challenging your claim to be in the majority of Christians. You'd be foolish to believe that. Your brand of Christianity is a small minority outside the US.

Phat writes:

He wants to let everyone in the club....


Your vile exclusivity is NOT what Jesus taught. I'll quote it again:
quote:
John3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

"Whosoever", not just the ones that YOU think are True Christians.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Phat, posted 06-16-2020 10:48 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 06-16-2020 12:19 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 306 of 673 (877443)
06-16-2020 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Phat
06-16-2020 10:25 AM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
Phat writes:

The initial change was of an inner certainty.

Yet that did not send up RED FLAG Warnings?

Inner certainty should always be seen as a major warning and threat and something that needs to be tested.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 06-16-2020 10:25 AM Phat has seen this message

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 307 of 673 (877444)
06-16-2020 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Phat
06-16-2020 10:48 AM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
Phat writes:

Sure I do. Why cant he just admit that he isn't a believer since he claims that Jesus was a cultural mythos, that it is irrelevant anyway because Christianity is based only on humans following a message with no need of communion or transformation...yet he hangs on to that stupid club as a badge of honor telling him that he too is a Christian.

Too funny.

Phat, it is not a claim. I am a registered member of the Episcopal Church.

And neither you or anyone else has every explained how communion or transformation is possible.

Phat writes:

You dont get to simply say a slogan and promise to do the message and get accepted without dropping your bad habits at the door.

Yet the evidence seems to show that that is EXACTLY what the Apologists and the CCoI market. "Not perfect but forgiven!"

It's an easy sell.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Phat, posted 06-16-2020 10:48 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 06-16-2020 12:25 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 308 of 673 (877446)
06-16-2020 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by ringo
06-16-2020 11:18 AM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
Whosoever believes. Not simply whoever.

that the world through him might be saved. Note: One must go through Him.

One cannot simply waltz through the door because they fed the homeless people, all the while carrying in their beer and their cussing, and their own stubborn character traits that keep them in bondage to their flesh. (or their intellect)


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by ringo, posted 06-16-2020 11:18 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by jar, posted 06-16-2020 2:09 PM Phat has replied
 Message 317 by ringo, posted 06-16-2020 5:11 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 309 of 673 (877447)
06-16-2020 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by jar
06-16-2020 11:47 AM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
And neither you or anyone else has every explained how communion or transformation is possible.
And you never chose to accept it. You didn't want it. You were taught that being a Christian was about what you did. And you likely were taught that those who simply accept the easy sell of apologetic s were delusional and lost in fantasy with a god they created.

You must have been taught that transformation itself was something *you* had to do. You clearly were taught that Paul was marketing a new religion.

PC Study Bible writes:

RENEW, RENEWING (VERB AND NOUN)
anakainosis
NT:342, akin to A, No. 1, "a renewal," is used in Rom 12:2, "the renewing (of your mind)," i. e., the adjustment of the moral and spiritual vision and thinking to the mind of God, which is designed to have a transforming effect upon the life; in Titus 3:5, where "the renewing of the Holy Spirit" is not a fresh bestowment of the Spirit, but a revival of His power, developing the Christian life; this passage stresses the continual operation of the indwelling Spirit of God; the Romans passage stresses the willing response on the part of the believer.


(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by jar, posted 06-16-2020 11:47 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by jar, posted 06-16-2020 2:21 PM Phat has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 310 of 673 (877451)
06-16-2020 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Phat
06-15-2020 10:44 PM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

Pastoir ICANT, I dont fully support Young Earth Creationism even if the apologists argue that its Bibloica

I can't support Young Earth Creationism at all.
The only thing they teach that I can support is that "God did it", which is a conclusion on their part.

Modern Young Earth Creation was invented by Ellen G. White in the 1800's after she had been hit on the head by a rock and was in a coma for 2 weeks. It is not supported by the Bible.

I have argued with YEC"S here and on two other websites and no one has ever presented a scripture that supports their belief.

They are just like the people who want to claim the universe is 13.5 billion years old, they have no supporting evidence . If the universe had a beginning to exist 13.5 billion years ago, and there was no existence before the universe began to exist, then where did it come from. Best answer given until this date is "We don't know". Then the argument goes on but we know what we believe and it has to be so.

I did a search last night and found that they are still no closer to an answer than they were when I started posting on EvC 12 years ago.

In fact the origin of the universe is classified as one of the most mysterious events that has ever occurred.

There are more than 17 of those mysterious events in which no evidence is available to support the assumptions that have to be made to introduce them.

No one knows how old the Universe is. Not scientist or religious people.

Phat writes:

but I DO support the Virgin Birth, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, and the belief that Jesus is very God of God.

That is the basis to start a life like Jesus lived. That is only the beginning but sadly for many they never grow and further. Because they do not study God's Word.

Phat writes:

What puzzles me is why people are either so supportive or so dismissive of this belief.

Why does that surprise you? There are only two kinds of people in the world. People who have accepted God's offer of Eternal life and those who have not. God gave mankind a choice. So mankind either believes God and accept His offer or believes the lie that the devil sold to Eve in the Garden that she would become like God knowing good and evil. Every since them many have chosen to believe the devil and be their own god deciding what is good and evil for themselves.

I would like to address the question in the OP as well as how I know God exists.

I know that God exists because He saved me and I am no longer what I used to be.

Message 1

quote:
Could someone please enlighten me as to when the end-times will come and how you came to that conclusion?

No one knows when the end will come but God. The angels don't even know.

But we can know some events that will take place just prior to the end of time as we know it.

We will have a world government.
It will be ruled by one man.
He will solve the middle east problem and make a pack with the Jews to rebuild the temple.
After a period of time he will break that pack and stand in the doorway to the Holy of Holies and declare himself to be God. Within 42 months the end will come.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 06-15-2020 10:44 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Phat, posted 06-16-2020 3:00 PM ICANT has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 311 of 673 (877455)
06-16-2020 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Phat
06-16-2020 12:19 PM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
LOL

Yes Phat, that was what the author of John inserted and marketed.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 06-16-2020 12:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Phat, posted 06-16-2020 2:51 PM jar has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 312 of 673 (877456)
06-16-2020 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Phat
06-16-2020 12:25 PM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
And so your only response is to post nonsense that the Apologists try to market from the declared Apologists propaganda.

Phat writes:

And you never chose to accept it.

Chose to accept what? You have never offered anything to accept or reject.

Look at that so called definition. It is nothing but a collage of silly meaningless bumper stickers and even those are qualified.

"the renewing (of your mind)," (HUH?)

the adjustment of the moral and spiritual vision and thinking to the mind of God (HUH?)

which is designed to have a transforming effect upon the life (And demonstrated by ????????????????????????????)

There is simply nothing there Phat except empty platitudes that have absolutely no meaning.

Transformation is something that can be seen and evidenced. Transformation can only be changed behavior.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 06-16-2020 12:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Phat, posted 06-16-2020 2:30 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 313 of 673 (877458)
06-16-2020 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by jar
06-16-2020 2:21 PM


jar always asks HUH and knows darn well what I mean
Chose to accept what?
The Spirit of the living God. (yeah yeah I know...another bumper sticker )
You have never offered anything to accept or reject.
Assuming you know how to read, I need you to clarify. Do you mean that the scriptures in Romans are empty platitudes and bumper stickers? If so, those Socratic intellectuals did more damage to your brain than I thought.

Look at that so called definition. It is nothing but a collage of silly meaningless bumper stickers and even those are qualified.
Oh so you mean the Romans Road Bumperf Stcker? Gotcha. So several questions.
1) Do you believe that GOD exists?
Do you believe that Jesus was simply a human or do you believe He was more?

Finally....you have read the Nicene Creed as well as other scriptures. Are you so dense as to not see the description of the Holy Spirit in scripture? Is it the fact that you think it was only written by humans limiting the possibility within your belief?

or are you an intellectual widow standing forever at the altar waiting for Evidence to take you by the hand?

"the renewing (of your mind)," (HUH?)
Dont act glib with me. You know darn well what the phrase is suggesting. Quit trying to out intellectualize scripture. You are not that bright.

There is simply nothing there Phat except empty platitudes that have absolutely no meaning.
No meaning for you because you rejected it. did Joe Wood teach you that? And remember the Warlord? Did the Warlord foirce feed everybody or did (or should) he have simply offered a plate to everyone who then had free will to eat or not? God does His part and we must do ours.
Transformation is something that can be seen and evidenced. Transformation can only be changed behavior.
Actually I can and will agree with you on this last point. Saying the sinners prayer does not complete transformation though it may well initiate it. (Not MY Will but THY Will be done.)

Edited by Phat, : added jarberwocky


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by jar, posted 06-16-2020 2:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by jar, posted 06-16-2020 3:02 PM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 314 of 673 (877459)
06-16-2020 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by jar
06-16-2020 2:09 PM


The Book Says A Lot But Now He Blames The Redactor
phat writes:

Whosoever believes. Not simply whoever.
that the world through him might be saved. Note: One must go through Him.

One cannot simply waltz through the door because they fed the homeless people, all the while carrying in their beer and their cussing, and their own stubborn character traits that keep them in bondage to their flesh. (or their intellect)


jar writes:

Yes Phat, that was what the author of John inserted and marketed.


And?

Is John any less part of the modern Bible than is Matthew 25?
Why is it one minute you claim to point out only what the book actually says and in the next minute attempt to single out the author of John and Paul the Apostle for starting a new religion and morphing it into a supernatural and attractive product?

Are you not yourself picking and choosing?


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by jar, posted 06-16-2020 2:09 PM jar has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 315 of 673 (877461)
06-16-2020 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by ICANT
06-16-2020 1:14 PM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
ICANT writes:

I have argued with YEC"S here and on two other websites and no one has ever presented a scripture that supports their belief.

They are just like the people who want to claim the universe is 13.5 billion years old, they have no supporting evidence . If the universe had a beginning to exist 13.5 billion years ago, and there was no existence before the universe began to exist, then where did it come from. Best answer given until this date is "We don't know". Then the argument goes on but we know what we believe and it has to be so.

I did a search last night and found that they are still no closer to an answer than they were when I started posting on EvC 12 years ago.

In fact the origin of the universe is classified as one of the most mysterious events that has ever occurred.

Stephen Hawking claimed that the universe can and will create itself out of nothing. He is no prophet nor anywhere near on the par with inspired scripture, though these guys would worship his intellect and laugh at Isaiah. In the Beginning, GOD. Simple enough for me to understand, but the critics will claim that we are intellectually lazy and simply fall back on "God Did It". But what is the alternative to that statement? "Humans Figured It Out?" Science is a valuable skill and is given to us along with our brains. There are some things that humans are encouraged to figure out. Our mistake is in rejecting our Creator and assuming that our own minds will solve the mysteries of the universe little by little.

I can see why many reject organized religion. Perhaps many of us come across as willfully ignorant or stupid. Only one thing comes to mind, in conclusion.

Romans 3:4 writes:

Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.”

That being said, I love debates and discussions at EvC> My flesh gets frustrated when nobody ever agrees with me, but in my spirit I feel as if we all are learning here.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by ICANT, posted 06-16-2020 1:14 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by ICANT, posted 06-16-2020 9:50 PM Phat has seen this message

  
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