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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 316 of 466 (877462)
06-16-2020 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Phat
06-16-2020 2:30 PM


Re: jar always asks HUH and knows darn well what I mean
Phat writes:

Do you mean that the scriptures in Romans are empty platitudes and bumper stickers?

Well, Romans was an interoffice memo. It was Paul speaking in terms that were agreed upon and exactly the same thing you seem to do quite often. Like you and the Apologists he very often does use word salad and it seemed to work just about like it does today.

Romans is a memo and should be treated like any interoffice memo. Bat as seen in your example above, what the Apologists and carny medicine men do is take pieces parts out of context and try to align bits from Romans with pieces parts from Titus or somewhere else but never take the next step, just as you did in the post I'm replying to now, to explain what the pieces parts mean.

Phat writes:

jar always asks HUH and knows darn well what I mean

Yet you NEVER actually explain what it means. You can't explain what it means even though there really is a meaning and that meaning negates almost all of your asserted beliefs.

Phat writes:

1) Do you believe that GOD exists?

I've answered that for you many, many, many times. Yes, I believe that GOD does exist even though I also understand that belief is illogical, irrational and pretty much irrelevant.

Phat writes:

Do you believe that Jesus was simply a human or do you believe He was more?

And yet again, I've answered that many, many, many times for you.

When Jesus was alive and living among us I believe he was simply human, nothing more.

Phat writes:

Are you so dense as to not see the description of the Holy Spirit in scripture?

Yes, there are hints of the Holy Spirit in the Pentacost tale. But it really is pretty much missing everywhere else and even there is is not characterized as a separate critter but more like inspiration.

And since you continue to claim that I know what you mean or some bumper sticker mean please treat me as an infant and explain it again.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Phat, posted 06-16-2020 2:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19062
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 317 of 466 (877475)
06-16-2020 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Phat
06-16-2020 12:19 PM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
Phat writes:

Whosoever believes. Not simply whoever.


I ASKED you: What does it MEAN to believe? Is it necessary to parrot Lord! Lord! or do you have to DO what He wanted?

Phat writes:

that the world through him might be saved. Note: One must go through Him.


It doesn't say that He is the ONLY conduit. It says that He came to be A conduit.

Phat writes:

One cannot simply waltz through the door because they fed the homeless people...


On the contrary, that's EXACTLY how Jesus said it works in Matthew 25.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 06-16-2020 12:19 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Phat, posted 06-17-2020 6:53 AM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 318 of 466 (877499)
06-16-2020 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Phat
06-16-2020 3:00 PM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

but in my spirit I feel as if we all are learning here.

My experiences here has caused me to do a lot of deep study that I would probably never have done had I not found EvC.

Phat writes:

Stephen Hawking claimed that the universe can and will create itself out of nothing.

I don't think Stephen Hawking made that statement. I do believe he said I think the universe was spontaneously created out of nothing, according to the laws of science.

He an Hartley came up with an 'instanton' because in a vacuum there are particles that appear and disappear spontaneously. About the instanton his statement was that if one appeared it would create a universe just like ours. Which was an assumption on his part as he had no evidence to support the claim. That is also the reason it never caught on and received any support other that cavediver that I know of.

If you remember I drove cavediver bananas asking him and others about how a vacuum could exist in non existence.

There would have to be existence for a vacuum to exist in.

nonexistence=the fact or state of not existing or not being real or present

existence=the fact or state of living or having objective reality.

The standard theory requires the universe to have a beginning to exist. Everyone says there is nothing outside of the universe as it is self contained. That would require the universe to begin to exist out of non existence. That is a scientific impossibility.

It has been proven that non-life cannot produce life.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Phat, posted 06-16-2020 3:00 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by AZPaul3, posted 06-17-2020 5:00 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 319 of 466 (877505)
06-17-2020 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by ICANT
06-16-2020 9:50 PM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
It has been proven that non-life cannot produce life.

Proven, has it? Please, show me this proof?


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by ICANT, posted 06-16-2020 9:50 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Phat, posted 06-17-2020 6:37 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 320 of 466 (877508)
06-17-2020 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by AZPaul3
06-17-2020 5:00 AM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
You surely are up early (or late). I too keep odd hours. One never knows if I will be asleep or awake.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by AZPaul3, posted 06-17-2020 5:00 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 321 of 466 (877509)
06-17-2020 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by ringo
06-16-2020 5:11 PM


What Does "It" Mean?
ringo writes:

What does it MEAN to believe?

It means having a changed life. Yes, as you have said and as jar has said, it is about DOING and not simply BELIEVING.

It is not about religion, but it IS about Jesus. Jesus Christ is Gods character. There is but ONE God. There are of course many gods within the context of human imagination, but in terms of the reality of the known universe (and I believe even in the context of the unknown possibility of a plethora of multiverses) there is ONE God. Jesus Christ alone is the ONE way to commune with this Creator of all seen and unseen. I know you will attempt to challenge it. You will claim that I am simply preaching or posting what jar calls word salad. You might even ask me for evidence. You always do. Maybe we should just lay aside our differences and go feed people. I'll come up there and we can feed, clothe, and encourage the people in your little town....but I will need a place to stay for a week once I get a vacation. Or you can come down here to Denver and stay on my couch. We can go out and feed and encourage some of the local homeless. My friends do it all the time and I sometimes join them on my days off, though I could do it more. You kept saying I never did what Jesus said so it challenged me to do it more often.

Now back to Jesus:

ringo writes:

It doesn't say that He is the ONLY conduit. It says that He came to be A conduit.

So you are claiming that Jesus is simply one of many paths to communion with God, Creator of all seen and unseen? You are of course free to believe whatever you want. I believe that Jesus is the first and last conduit. I believe that He is the ONLY Conduit. You claim that His message is more important than He is, but I would argue that He is as important as His Word. Does He not say that no man comes to the Father but by me?

Finally, about Matthew 25.

ringo writes:

On the contrary, that's EXACTLY how Jesus said it works in Matthew 25.

Granted Matthew 25 mentions doing versus believing. Granted Matthew 25 mentions those who listen and do the message without being religious or transformed. They do it because it is the right thing to do and not simply to receive a reward from Jesus. I get all that. My argument, however, is that Jesus exists eternally and will at somee point meet these followers of His message who do it rather than ignore it and they WILL become transformed. They will drop the alcohol and the cigarettes. They will realize that Jesus is real. That He lives eternally. And that He is the Head and they are part of His body. They wont bypass this reality and set up squatters rights in Heaven doing their own thing. Satan got booted for doing that.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by ringo, posted 06-16-2020 5:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by jar, posted 06-17-2020 7:29 AM Phat has responded
 Message 325 by ringo, posted 06-17-2020 11:29 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 322 of 466 (877510)
06-17-2020 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by Phat
06-17-2020 6:53 AM


Re: What Does "It" Mean?
Phat writes:

They will drop the alcohol and the cigarettes.

There you go again. What could possibly make you think Jesus would expect anyone to drop the alcohol when it was Jesus that made the better wine for the party, then he told his followers to take a drink in remembrance of him?

Can you not see that all you market is the God and Jesus YOU created?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Phat, posted 06-17-2020 6:53 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 06-17-2020 7:49 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 323 of 466 (877513)
06-17-2020 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by jar
06-17-2020 7:29 AM


Re: What Does "It" Mean?
oh stop. You surely know that I am right. It is one thing to have wine at a wedding., The whole wedding metaphor is symbolic anyway. The argument that I am making with ringo is that transformation happens. You dont simply approach heaven keeping your old fleshly habits. Now...hypothetically you COULD make the argument that God does not care and will accept everybody. I wont limit Gods power through denying it. What I am saying, however, is that GOD is represented to us by His human character of Jesus Christ. And I believe that Jesus never got drunk. Never smoked cigarettes. Never allowed His flesh to dominate His Spirit. (you likely will bring up the temper tantrum in the Temple, but oh well )

You claim that I (and the apologists) market a certain Jesus and that you, on the other hand, simply report what the book says. I would argue otherwise...especially if you dare make an argument that Jesus was an imperfect human while on earth. I do not believe that.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by jar, posted 06-17-2020 7:29 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by jar, posted 06-17-2020 8:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 324 of 466 (877514)
06-17-2020 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Phat
06-17-2020 7:49 AM


Re: What Does "It" Mean?
Phat writes:

oh stop. You surely know that I am right.

Actually, I believe very strongly that you are wrong.

Phat writes:

You claim that I (and the apologists) market a certain Jesus and that you, on the other hand, simply report what the book says. I would argue otherwise...especially if you dare make an argument that Jesus was an imperfect human while on earth. I do not believe that.

LOL

But Phat, that is exactly what is written in both the Bible and in the Nicene Creed. Sure, there are also claims made in the Bible that Jesus was perfect but those claims are never supported by reasoning or logic or evidence.

Human wrote the Bible and it has contradictions, errors and fantasy.

You are free to assert most anything but argument requires that you provide support for those assertions.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 06-17-2020 7:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 06-18-2020 7:33 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19062
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 325 of 466 (877521)
06-17-2020 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by Phat
06-17-2020 6:53 AM


Re: What Does "It" Mean?
Phat writes:

It means having a changed life.


So why is there no evidence of a "changed life"? Why is it that prisons are full of believers?

Phat writes:

It is not about religion, but it IS about Jesus. Jesus Christ is Gods character. There is but ONE God.


I'm not asking you to blather the same old same old bumper-sticker slogans. I'm asking you to THINK. Actually compose a sentence of your own for once.

Phat writes:

You kept saying I never did what Jesus said so it challenged me to do it more often.


I haven't said that. YOU said that. YOU claim that Jesus never said it. YOU claim it isn't practical, even though the Roman church apparently did it.

Phat writes:

So you are claiming that Jesus is simply one of many paths to communion with God, Creator of all seen and unseen?


I didn't say anything about "communion" with God. That's a silly idea.

I'm just pointing out what the gospel of John actually SAYS.

Phat writes:

You claim that His message is more important than He is, but I would argue that He is as important as His Word.


But you never do argue. You just assert. Is that because there is no actual argument?

Phat writes:

Does He not say that no man comes to the Father but by me?


He says that no man comes to the Father but by "the way".

What is the way? He was explicit about that. "What must I do to be saved?" "Sell what you have and give to the poor." The Roman church apparently did that.

He was also expliicit about how "all nations" will be judged - by what we do for the least of His brethern.

Phat writes:

My argument, however, is that Jesus exists eternally and will at somee point meet these followers of His message who do it rather than ignore it and they WILL become transformed.


You're making that up. Matthew 25 says nothing of the kind. They did the right thing BEFORE they ever even heard about Jesus - so Jesus CAN NOT have been a conduit for them.

Phat writes:

They will realize that Jesus is real. That He lives eternally. And that He is the Head and they are part of His body.


Again, Matthew 25 says nothing of the kind. It's all lies made up by apologists to fit their made-up scenario.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Phat, posted 06-17-2020 6:53 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Phat, posted 06-18-2020 8:15 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 326 of 466 (877553)
06-18-2020 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by jar
06-17-2020 8:26 AM


Re: What Does "It" Mean?
jar writes:

Actually, I believe very strongly that you are wrong.

Figures. You really are a stick in the mud, are you not? You claim that my Christianity is apologetic, fantasy based, exclusive and dependent on signs and wonders to keep me interested. In some ways you are right. Had I never experienced the actual presence and power of God, I doubt I would ever care about these arguments nor of the need to convince anybody. To me, it would be a sad sobering day if what you guys said were true and that GOD were simply an abstract unproved possibility and that the charge remained defined by humans for humans with no promises of any reward in having fed, clothed, loved, encouraged and supported other humans with no supernatural Father figure ready to hand out rewards to me and my fellow believers for having run the race so well. A perfect and all powerful SOURCE is important to me. I honestly believe that I have met Him and that He speaks to me...though not audibly nor on a daily basis.

I strongly believe that Jesus is the Head and that WE are the Body.

jar writes:

Human wrote the Bible and it has contradictions, errors and fantasy.

You always assert this and it really bothers me. To even consider it as true in any way threatens my assurance that I unerringly believe. I will not doubt!!
I will question and consider other arguments for one reason and one reason only. And that is to understand how YOU think and how ringo thinks and why on earth you dont see things the way that I do. What scares me is that I feel that Even IF God was and is the way that I market Him, you would willfully reject Him anyway. You seem to not want nor need the type of help and support from Him that I want and need. You would throw Him away simply to run your own race and follow Jesus message simply for the self satisfaction of having done good. And that attitude scares me.
I believe very strongly that it is wrong and delusional and that you dont understand that there is in fact a spiritual realm. You mock us and laugh at us for attempting to push the belief that there is(a spiritual realm...a supernatural realm) and that humans are going to fail without Communion and that we will need Jesus.

jar writes:

But Phat, that is exactly what is written in both the Bible and in the Nicene Creed. Sure, there are also claims made in the Bible that Jesus was perfect but those claims are never supported by reasoning or logic or evidence.

They are, but why should I even bother putting up this argument. You dont want the God that I market even if He were real. (and of course He is. He is alive) And I need Him. You apparently don't. Which is sad. How could you even want to believe that Jesus was imperfect? Jesus is Gods character. Yet you have presented a god whom humans invented and whom is learning on the job. Even if that were true, it is repulsive.

You are free to assert most anything but argument requires that you provide support for those assertions.
But why should I even bother? It seems that you guys dont want to believe it anyway. It frustrates me to no end that you would support a God Who allows people to remain unchanged and allowed to keep their own personality and lifestyle choices. Heaven is not all inclusive. If it were, God and I would have some issues. I would dare scold Him for being so liberal and tolerant. Heck, may as well allow Satan Himself back in!

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by jar, posted 06-17-2020 8:26 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by jar, posted 06-18-2020 9:06 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15362
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 327 of 466 (877555)
06-18-2020 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by ringo
06-17-2020 11:29 AM


Re: What Does "It" Mean?
Phat writes:

It means having a changed life.


ringo writes:

So why is there no evidence of a "changed life"? Why is it that prisons are full of believers?

It is not just prisons that are full of believers. Believers are a minority yet they are everywhere. Pastor Isaiah believes that the American Church is weak and that it is full of lukewarm Christians who are comfortable with their lot in life....perhaps wanting only to help their heirs become great again and for America to take its spot as the Christian nation that leads the world.
Phat writes:

It is not about religion, but it IS about Jesus. Jesus Christ is Gods character. There is but ONE God.


ringo writes:

I'm not asking you to blather the same old same old bumper-sticker slogans. I'm asking you to THINK. Actually compose a sentence of your own for once.

Thanks for your tough love!
Phat writes:

You kept saying I never did what Jesus said so it challenged me to do it more often.


ringo writes:

I haven't said that. YOU said that. YOU claim that Jesus never said it. YOU claim it isn't practical, even though the Roman church apparently did it.

I never had problems with your argument except that you always say that the messenger is unimportant and that the message is all that is important. What good is atheistic socialism? If you throw God away and compare Jesus to an amalgamation of an Elmer Gantry type character, all you are doing is altruistic socialism. I wont put up with a world full of people who defiantly defend their right to be as they are--unchanged, untransformed, and proud of it. And i would have issues with God if He allowed them in the house as they are and commanded us to put up with their rebellious ways.

Phat writes:

So you are claiming that Jesus is simply one of many paths to communion with God, Creator of all seen and unseen?


ringo writes:

I didn't say anything about "communion" with God. That's a silly idea.

Why is it silly? In retrospect, you and jar dont believe in original sin or that humans have a fallen nature...so I guess I see somewhat why you believe this nonsense.
ringo writes:

I'm just pointing out what the gospel of John actually SAYS.

. Fine, lets keep discussing it. But dont get on my case for agreeing with the apologists. Why should I switch sides and agree with you? You claim that the messenger is unimportant and jar advocates throwing Him away!
Phat writes:

You claim that His message is more important than He is, but I would argue that He is as important as His Word.


ringo writes:

But you never do argue. You just assert. Is that because there is no actual argument?

There is, but you will claim that I dont have an original thought and simply parrot the apologists.

Phat writes:

Does He not say that no man comes to the Father but by me?


ringo writes:

He says that no man comes to the Father but by "the way".


Lets examine this.
John 14:1-12 writes:

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.” 5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

Now to be fair, this passage lends support to both of our arguments. Nowhere does it suggest ignoring the messenger or throwing the Father(and the Son) away.

ringo writes:

What is the way? He was explicit about that. "What must I do to be saved?" "Sell what you have and give to the poor." The Roman church apparently did that.

He was also explicit about how "all nations" will be judged - by what we do for the least of His brethren.

You are right and yet you are not seeing what I see.

Phat writes:

They will realize that Jesus is real. That He lives eternally. And that He is the Head and they are part of His body.


ringo writes:

Again, Matthew 25 says nothing of the kind. It's all lies made up by apologists to fit their made-up scenario.

Why are you guys so hard on the apologists? Why do accuse them of lying? Perhaps you dont understand that God cannot lie and that satan is the father of lies.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by ringo, posted 06-17-2020 11:29 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by ringo, posted 06-18-2020 11:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 328 of 466 (877559)
06-18-2020 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by Phat
06-18-2020 7:33 AM


Re: What Does "It" Mean?
Phat writes:

To me, it would be a sad sobering day if what you guys said were true and that GOD were simply an abstract unproved possibility and that the charge remained defined by humans for humans with no promises of any reward in having fed, clothed, loved, encouraged and supported other humans with no supernatural Father figure ready to hand out rewards to me and my fellow believers for having run the race so well.

To even consider it as true in any way threatens my assurance that I unerringly believe. I will not doubt!!

They are, but why should I even bother putting up this argument. You dont want the God that I market even if He were real. (and of course He is. He is alive) And I need Him.

It frustrates me to no end that you would support a God Who allows people to remain unchanged and allowed to keep their own personality and lifestyle choices. Heaven is not all inclusive. If it were, God and I would have some issues. I would dare scold Him for being so liberal and tolerant. Heck, may as well allow Satan Himself back in!

The topic is "When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?"

Those folk who market the "End Times" gambit ran away and have not been heard from again.

The post to which you are replying did make some pretty clear statements though and in fact you provided no argument other than the fact that you do not like for them to be true.

But if you really need to hold onto your beliefs, then why do you place them on the table to be challenged?

If you hope to persuade others that your beliefs should be adopted then you need to provide evidence and reasoning to support those beliefs.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 06-18-2020 7:33 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19062
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 329 of 466 (877562)
06-18-2020 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Phat
06-18-2020 8:15 AM


Re: What Does "It" Mean?
Phat writes:

It is not just prisons that are full of believers. Believers are a minority yet they are everywhere.


You didn't answer the question. Why is there no evidence of the supposed "changed lives".

Phat writes:

... you always say that the messenger is unimportant and that the message is all that is important.


And you never have any counter to that point. See above. Why are the people who think the messenger is important not better people than the ones who don't.

Phat writes:

What good is atheistic socialism?


Socialism is no more athesitic than science is.

Socialism is good because we are a social species. We do better when we help each other. You're supposed to have learned that in kindergarten.

Phat writes:

If you throw God away and compare Jesus to an amalgamation of an Elmer Gantry type character, all you are doing is altruistic socialism.


What more is there?

Phat writes:

I wont put up with a world full of people who defiantly defend their right to be as they are--unchanged, untransformed, and proud of it.


See above. You're NOT changed. You're NOT transformed. You NEED to change to become MORE socialist, not less. Your messenger-worship is a millstone that's holding you back.

Phat writes:

Why is it silly?


You've been told many times. Isn't it silly for you to have communion with a bacterium?

Phat writes:

But dont get on my case for agreeing with the apologists.


I will get on your case. You're not even really agreeing with them. You're just parroting them. If you had put any thought into it, you'd be able to discuss their arguments but you never do.

Phat writes:

Why should I switch sides and agree with you?


Because they're wrong.

Phat writes:

You claim that the messenger is unimportant and jar advocates throwing Him away!


Yes. Why can't you make an argument against that position instead of just scoffing at it?

Phat writes:

There is, but you will claim that I dont have an original thought and simply parrot the apologists.


If there is an argument, MAKE IT.

Phat writes:

You are right and yet you are not seeing what I see.


So tell us what you see.

Phat writes:

Why are you guys so hard on the apologists? Why do accuse them of lying?


Because they're lying. See Genesis 3.

Phat writes:

Perhaps you dont understand that God cannot lie and that satan is the father of lies.


That's s lie that the apologists have told you. Unless you have an argument to back up what they say, you have no business believing them.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Phat, posted 06-18-2020 8:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8149
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 330 of 466 (877600)
06-19-2020 5:24 AM


I'm probably late on this but this biblical nutter tells us that the Rapture will happen next year.

Based on a lifetime study of Biblical hermeneutics, World Bible Society President. Dr. F. Kenton Beshore says the "Rapture" is likely to occur between now and 2021 and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ from 2018 and 2028.

World Bible Society President Says 'Rapture' Likely to Occur by 2021 - Christian Newswire

He's got 5 doctoral degrees in theology and has distributed 65m bibles. I've got no doctoral degrees and no bibles but I prophesies that he's wrong. And luckily it can be proved to be wrong.

I'll be waiting attentively for his excuses.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by vimesey, posted 06-19-2020 5:32 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 332 by AZPaul3, posted 06-19-2020 11:15 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 334 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 1:44 PM Tangle has responded

  
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