Evidence For Belief

Well, they both have orcs and dragons, wizards and ghosts. But the names are different. That's probably not what you were talking about... was it?

EvC Forum has traditionally been divided into two basic sections:
Science Forums and Social & Religious Forums.
One issue which we have discussed at length in our many threads and topics is the idea of whether or not Religious and/or Philosophical Belief requires a strict standard of evidence in order to be seriously considered as valid. In this topic, I wish to gather some of the points made by our various debates throughout the forum and present them all together in order to hopefully encourage a discussion on the idea of evidenced beliefs versus myths, legends, fantasies, and other unsupported assertions by believers and secular philosophers alike.This topic is not limited to science nor is it confined to the dogma of belief.It is hopefully a hybrid.
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I started this topic at the end of 2018 and thought it timely to resurrect, mainly because of our current beef with a stubborn Dad. Thats my point. You cant nor did not invent the God i am discussing. At worst, you can claim that I invented Him, but perhaps you would need some evidence. To be precise, the failure in this case is the failure to present a supportable science based challenge. Note that this is a science Forum.Dad, please listen to moderation. If you stay here at EvC, you will get challenged and perhaps someday will challenge others as your arguments become more refined and you are able to make valid points. If you challenge authority (which is ungodly, by the way) you will simply get suspended and we will be at a loss for not having you around to challenge and refine *our* arguments. Well actually some of us *do* care. After all, if you respond to us in a Science Forum, we expect you to respond scientifically rather than emotionally. Which is why I usually stay out of this side of the Forum. Yes but not on the grounds of lack of evidence. I reject them based on my belief. You dont get to define what does and does not *make* God lame. Keep these sorts of comments inj Faith & Belief. You also dont get to define evidence over the entire Forum. You best stick to the science side should you choose to throw that word around. (at which point I move the topic out of Geology & The Flood) Edited by Phat, : added moved conversationEdited by Phat, : No reason given.

Actually, that's my point. If your God has no basis in reality - i.e. no evidence that he's doing something in the world, what good is he? Apologists made up the God you believe in.

Do you have any evidence that it was an accident? Do you have any reason to assert that all beliefs are equally valid? Might it not just be possible that some of us have the belief that is closest to reality or...in fact...that our God created the very parameters of the reality you seek to define?

Of course. People born into Christian cultures tend to be Christians, people who are born into Muslim cultures tend to be Muslims. If you had been born anywhere else in the world, do you think your beliefs would still be so American? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by putting your foolish beliefs on the same plane as other more sensible beliefs. They are equal in the sense that they equally lack evidence. They are not all equally sensible or palatable. You tell me. Is it possible that Zeus is closest to reality?

Belief is like a good insurance policy. It covers the Acts of God that your evidence-based insurance does not cover. This is just silly talk. Evenj if the first critters did exist, the idea that the earth has a living conscious personality is itself another demon masquerading as an object of worship. Tree huggers beware. I have two points.
First, I did not invent God nor did the apologists. You can argue, as does jar, that humans create the gods they want. Thats a valid point. I disagree with it based on my own reasoning and my subjective experience. It seems clear to me also that GOD, if GOD exists and if GOD chose to relate to humans through Jesus, that He wont provide us with Objective proof (evidence for everyone) because it would essentially make us acknowledge Him and He wants that to be our decision and not our sane duty. That I will acknowledge as long as it makes me laugh. Ive never yet heard a good joke from God. No more than the 12 patients who think they are your Disciples really your Disciples. Whats your point? Do we have any evidence that an uncaused first cause lit the fuse for this Bang you talk about?Is Stephen Hawking as wise as the Prophet Isaiah? On what evidence do you base your reply?

First of all, Christianity is not "American". Second of all, there are Christians in every culture, even in Islamic Nations. I await your evidence that there are more sensible beliefs than Christianity. This should be good! Objectively but not subjectively. I will give you the benefit of the doubt in that you stand at the altar,flowers in hand, waiting for evidence to show up while having dumped belief because it was not objective enough for your standards. I suppose that with God all things are possible, but I am personally unimpressed with Zeus.

That's a poor analogy. There are thousands of insurance companies and your belief is that only one of them pays out. Of course. It was intended to be silly. It's a parody of your belief in a hiding god. If there's any reasoning involved, why don't you present it instead of just parroting the apologists? Polly want a cracker? As far as I know, we have no definitive evidence for ANY "uncaused cause". That's not an excuse for you to make one up. How would you go about measuring wisdom? You're looking at a computer right now that Stephen Hawking understood and Isaiah didn't.

Your cult is. And there are Muslims in every culture. The point is that most people acquire their religion accidentally by being born into it. Read my posts. I have pointed out many times how nonsensical your beliefs are. For just one example, the idea that God sent his "son" (himself) so that we could kill him and only then could he forgive us. Will you ever learn? There is no such thing as subjective evidence. But is it possible that he is closest to reality? That's what you asked me about your god.

Only one of them does pay out. And its not a matter of paying out...its a matter of Creating what we know as reality. God created all seen and unseen through Jesus Christ. Jesus is alive today. This *is* reality. God does not hide from us. We hide(or try to hide) from God. And the definition of the word Occult is akin to hidden knowledge, but the bible tells us that all things hidden shall be revealed. You seem to assert two things.
1) All apologists are delusional. Which is false.
2) Reasoning involves rejection of apologetics.
yet the definition of apologetics is this: Thus, reasoning need not involve rejection of apologetics. Yes, and I believe I will partake of Holy Communion and have some wine as well...symbolic of the sacrifice my Lord made for me.
Polly wanna eat crow? Or perhaps choke on some manna? (all jokes aside, I approach these debates prayerfully). You are a worthy debater. From your definition that evidence must be objective, we do not yet have objective evidence that God is real. We DO have a way to prove this provided you are willing to give up everything you thought was truth and place it on the altar. Or does that scare you? Good question, ringo. I may need time to think about it.

1) Why did we kill him?
2)Genesis 22:1-19 1 After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, Abraham! And he said, Here I am. 2 He said, Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you. 3 So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac. And he cut the wood for the burnt offering and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4 On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place from afar. 5 Then Abraham said to his young men, Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you. 6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son. And he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together. 7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, My father! And he said, Here I am, my son. He said, Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 Abraham said, God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son. So they went both of them together.

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9 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built the altar there and laid the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, Abraham, Abraham! And he said, Here I am. 12 He said, Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called the name of that place, The LORD will provide;b as it is said to this day, On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided.c

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15 And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16 and said, By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, 18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice. 19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba. And Abraham lived at Beersheba.

It's mindless blather. Bullshit. You've said many times that God wants us to believe in Him by faith and not by evidence. Holding back the evidence is hiding. Show us that it's false. I didn't say it "needs to". I said it usually does. That's what I'm challenging YOU to do.You seem to forget that I've already done that. I gave up the same beliefs that you have.

According to the story, the Jews didn't like Him claiming to be God.What does that have to do with my point? The sensible plan would have been for God to just forgive us. Again, what's your point?

hey these guys want evidencethey don't want the our lady of Guadalupe imageor the shroud of turinor bodies not decomposingor suns dancing in the skythey definitely don't want weeping paintings and statuesapparitions appearing to young childrenthey don't want eucharists bleeding in cups

"There's a sucker born every minute."--PT Barnum