Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 313 of 794 (877458)
06-16-2020 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by jar
06-16-2020 2:21 PM


jar always asks HUH and knows darn well what I mean
Chose to accept what?
The Spirit of the living God. (yeah yeah I know...another bumper sticker )
You have never offered anything to accept or reject.
Assuming you know how to read, I need you to clarify. Do you mean that the scriptures in Romans are empty platitudes and bumper stickers? If so, those Socratic intellectuals did more damage to your brain than I thought.
Look at that so called definition. It is nothing but a collage of silly meaningless bumper stickers and even those are qualified.
Oh so you mean the Romans Road Bumperf Stcker? Gotcha. So several questions.
1) Do you believe that GOD exists?
Do you believe that Jesus was simply a human or do you believe He was more?
Finally....you have read the Nicene Creed as well as other scriptures. Are you so dense as to not see the description of the Holy Spirit in scripture? Is it the fact that you think it was only written by humans limiting the possibility within your belief?
or are you an intellectual widow standing forever at the altar waiting for Evidence to take you by the hand?
"the renewing (of your mind)," (HUH?)
Dont act glib with me. You know darn well what the phrase is suggesting. Quit trying to out intellectualize scripture. You are not that bright.
There is simply nothing there Phat except empty platitudes that have absolutely no meaning.
No meaning for you because you rejected it. did Joe Wood teach you that? And remember the Warlord? Did the Warlord foirce feed everybody or did (or should) he have simply offered a plate to everyone who then had free will to eat or not? God does His part and we must do ours.
Transformation is something that can be seen and evidenced. Transformation can only be changed behavior.
Actually I can and will agree with you on this last point. Saying the sinners prayer does not complete transformation though it may well initiate it. (Not MY Will but THY Will be done.)
Edited by Phat, : added jarberwocky

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by jar, posted 06-16-2020 2:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by jar, posted 06-16-2020 3:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 314 of 794 (877459)
06-16-2020 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by jar
06-16-2020 2:09 PM


The Book Says A Lot But Now He Blames The Redactor
phat writes:
Whosoever believes. Not simply whoever.
that the world through him might be saved. Note: One must go through Him.
One cannot simply waltz through the door because they fed the homeless people, all the while carrying in their beer and their cussing, and their own stubborn character traits that keep them in bondage to their flesh. (or their intellect)
jar writes:
Yes Phat, that was what the author of John inserted and marketed.
And?
Is John any less part of the modern Bible than is Matthew 25?
Why is it one minute you claim to point out only what the book actually says and in the next minute attempt to single out the author of John and Paul the Apostle for starting a new religion and morphing it into a supernatural and attractive product?
Are you not yourself picking and choosing?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by jar, posted 06-16-2020 2:09 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 315 of 794 (877461)
06-16-2020 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by ICANT
06-16-2020 1:14 PM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
ICANT writes:
I have argued with YEC"S here and on two other websites and no one has ever presented a scripture that supports their belief.
They are just like the people who want to claim the universe is 13.5 billion years old, they have no supporting evidence . If the universe had a beginning to exist 13.5 billion years ago, and there was no existence before the universe began to exist, then where did it come from. Best answer given until this date is "We don't know". Then the argument goes on but we know what we believe and it has to be so.
I did a search last night and found that they are still no closer to an answer than they were when I started posting on EvC 12 years ago.
In fact the origin of the universe is classified as one of the most mysterious events that has ever occurred.
Stephen Hawking claimed that the universe can and will create itself out of nothing. He is no prophet nor anywhere near on the par with inspired scripture, though these guys would worship his intellect and laugh at Isaiah. In the Beginning, GOD. Simple enough for me to understand, but the critics will claim that we are intellectually lazy and simply fall back on "God Did It". But what is the alternative to that statement? "Humans Figured It Out?" Science is a valuable skill and is given to us along with our brains. There are some things that humans are encouraged to figure out. Our mistake is in rejecting our Creator and assuming that our own minds will solve the mysteries of the universe little by little.
I can see why many reject organized religion. Perhaps many of us come across as willfully ignorant or stupid. Only one thing comes to mind, in conclusion.
Romans 3:4 writes:
Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.
That being said, I love debates and discussions at EvC> My flesh gets frustrated when nobody ever agrees with me, but in my spirit I feel as if we all are learning here.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by ICANT, posted 06-16-2020 1:14 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by ICANT, posted 06-16-2020 9:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 320 of 794 (877508)
06-17-2020 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by AZPaul3
06-17-2020 5:00 AM


Re: Some folk ask truly pointless questions
You surely are up early (or late). I too keep odd hours. One never knows if I will be asleep or awake.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by AZPaul3, posted 06-17-2020 5:00 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 321 of 794 (877509)
06-17-2020 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by ringo
06-16-2020 5:11 PM


What Does "It" Mean?
ringo writes:
What does it MEAN to believe?
It means having a changed life. Yes, as you have said and as jar has said, it is about DOING and not simply BELIEVING.
It is not about religion, but it IS about Jesus. Jesus Christ is Gods character. There is but ONE God. There are of course many gods within the context of human imagination, but in terms of the reality of the known universe (and I believe even in the context of the unknown possibility of a plethora of multiverses) there is ONE God. Jesus Christ alone is the ONE way to commune with this Creator of all seen and unseen. I know you will attempt to challenge it. You will claim that I am simply preaching or posting what jar calls word salad. You might even ask me for evidence. You always do. Maybe we should just lay aside our differences and go feed people. I'll come up there and we can feed, clothe, and encourage the people in your little town....but I will need a place to stay for a week once I get a vacation. Or you can come down here to Denver and stay on my couch. We can go out and feed and encourage some of the local homeless. My friends do it all the time and I sometimes join them on my days off, though I could do it more. You kept saying I never did what Jesus said so it challenged me to do it more often.
Now back to Jesus:
ringo writes:
It doesn't say that He is the ONLY conduit. It says that He came to be A conduit.
So you are claiming that Jesus is simply one of many paths to communion with God, Creator of all seen and unseen? You are of course free to believe whatever you want. I believe that Jesus is the first and last conduit. I believe that He is the ONLY Conduit. You claim that His message is more important than He is, but I would argue that He is as important as His Word. Does He not say that no man comes to the Father but by me?
Finally, about Matthew 25.
ringo writes:
On the contrary, that's EXACTLY how Jesus said it works in Matthew 25.
Granted Matthew 25 mentions doing versus believing. Granted Matthew 25 mentions those who listen and do the message without being religious or transformed. They do it because it is the right thing to do and not simply to receive a reward from Jesus. I get all that. My argument, however, is that Jesus exists eternally and will at somee point meet these followers of His message who do it rather than ignore it and they WILL become transformed. They will drop the alcohol and the cigarettes. They will realize that Jesus is real. That He lives eternally. And that He is the Head and they are part of His body. They wont bypass this reality and set up squatters rights in Heaven doing their own thing. Satan got booted for doing that.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by ringo, posted 06-16-2020 5:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by jar, posted 06-17-2020 7:29 AM Phat has replied
 Message 325 by ringo, posted 06-17-2020 11:29 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 323 of 794 (877513)
06-17-2020 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by jar
06-17-2020 7:29 AM


Re: What Does "It" Mean?
oh stop. You surely know that I am right. It is one thing to have wine at a wedding., The whole wedding metaphor is symbolic anyway. The argument that I am making with ringo is that transformation happens. You dont simply approach heaven keeping your old fleshly habits. Now...hypothetically you COULD make the argument that God does not care and will accept everybody. I wont limit Gods power through denying it. What I am saying, however, is that GOD is represented to us by His human character of Jesus Christ. And I believe that Jesus never got drunk. Never smoked cigarettes. Never allowed His flesh to dominate His Spirit. (you likely will bring up the temper tantrum in the Temple, but oh well )
You claim that I (and the apologists) market a certain Jesus and that you, on the other hand, simply report what the book says. I would argue otherwise...especially if you dare make an argument that Jesus was an imperfect human while on earth. I do not believe that.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by jar, posted 06-17-2020 7:29 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by jar, posted 06-17-2020 8:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 326 of 794 (877553)
06-18-2020 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by jar
06-17-2020 8:26 AM


Re: What Does "It" Mean?
jar writes:
Actually, I believe very strongly that you are wrong.
Figures. You really are a stick in the mud, are you not? You claim that my Christianity is apologetic, fantasy based, exclusive and dependent on signs and wonders to keep me interested. In some ways you are right. Had I never experienced the actual presence and power of God, I doubt I would ever care about these arguments nor of the need to convince anybody. To me, it would be a sad sobering day if what you guys said were true and that GOD were simply an abstract unproved possibility and that the charge remained defined by humans for humans with no promises of any reward in having fed, clothed, loved, encouraged and supported other humans with no supernatural Father figure ready to hand out rewards to me and my fellow believers for having run the race so well. A perfect and all powerful SOURCE is important to me. I honestly believe that I have met Him and that He speaks to me...though not audibly nor on a daily basis.
I strongly believe that Jesus is the Head and that WE are the Body.
jar writes:
Human wrote the Bible and it has contradictions, errors and fantasy.
You always assert this and it really bothers me. To even consider it as true in any way threatens my assurance that I unerringly believe. I will not doubt!!
I will question and consider other arguments for one reason and one reason only. And that is to understand how YOU think and how ringo thinks and why on earth you dont see things the way that I do. What scares me is that I feel that Even IF God was and is the way that I market Him, you would willfully reject Him anyway. You seem to not want nor need the type of help and support from Him that I want and need. You would throw Him away simply to run your own race and follow Jesus message simply for the self satisfaction of having done good. And that attitude scares me.
I believe very strongly that it is wrong and delusional and that you dont understand that there is in fact a spiritual realm. You mock us and laugh at us for attempting to push the belief that there is(a spiritual realm...a supernatural realm) and that humans are going to fail without Communion and that we will need Jesus.
jar writes:
But Phat, that is exactly what is written in both the Bible and in the Nicene Creed. Sure, there are also claims made in the Bible that Jesus was perfect but those claims are never supported by reasoning or logic or evidence.
They are, but why should I even bother putting up this argument. You dont want the God that I market even if He were real. (and of course He is. He is alive) And I need Him. You apparently don't. Which is sad. How could you even want to believe that Jesus was imperfect? Jesus is Gods character. Yet you have presented a god whom humans invented and whom is learning on the job. Even if that were true, it is repulsive.
You are free to assert most anything but argument requires that you provide support for those assertions.
But why should I even bother? It seems that you guys dont want to believe it anyway. It frustrates me to no end that you would support a God Who allows people to remain unchanged and allowed to keep their own personality and lifestyle choices. Heaven is not all inclusive. If it were, God and I would have some issues. I would dare scold Him for being so liberal and tolerant. Heck, may as well allow Satan Himself back in!
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by jar, posted 06-17-2020 8:26 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by jar, posted 06-18-2020 9:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 327 of 794 (877555)
06-18-2020 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by ringo
06-17-2020 11:29 AM


Re: What Does "It" Mean?
Phat writes:
It means having a changed life.
ringo writes:
So why is there no evidence of a "changed life"? Why is it that prisons are full of believers?
It is not just prisons that are full of believers. Believers are a minority yet they are everywhere. Pastor Isaiah believes that the American Church is weak and that it is full of lukewarm Christians who are comfortable with their lot in life....perhaps wanting only to help their heirs become great again and for America to take its spot as the Christian nation that leads the world.
Phat writes:
It is not about religion, but it IS about Jesus. Jesus Christ is Gods character. There is but ONE God.
ringo writes:
I'm not asking you to blather the same old same old bumper-sticker slogans. I'm asking you to THINK. Actually compose a sentence of your own for once.
Thanks for your tough love!
Phat writes:
You kept saying I never did what Jesus said so it challenged me to do it more often.
ringo writes:
I haven't said that. YOU said that. YOU claim that Jesus never said it. YOU claim it isn't practical, even though the Roman church apparently did it.
I never had problems with your argument except that you always say that the messenger is unimportant and that the message is all that is important. What good is atheistic socialism? If you throw God away and compare Jesus to an amalgamation of an Elmer Gantry type character, all you are doing is altruistic socialism. I wont put up with a world full of people who defiantly defend their right to be as they are--unchanged, untransformed, and proud of it. And i would have issues with God if He allowed them in the house as they are and commanded us to put up with their rebellious ways.
Phat writes:
So you are claiming that Jesus is simply one of many paths to communion with God, Creator of all seen and unseen?
ringo writes:
I didn't say anything about "communion" with God. That's a silly idea.
Why is it silly? In retrospect, you and jar dont believe in original sin or that humans have a fallen nature...so I guess I see somewhat why you believe this nonsense.
ringo writes:
I'm just pointing out what the gospel of John actually SAYS.
. Fine, lets keep discussing it. But dont get on my case for agreeing with the apologists. Why should I switch sides and agree with you? You claim that the messenger is unimportant and jar advocates throwing Him away!
Phat writes:
You claim that His message is more important than He is, but I would argue that He is as important as His Word.
ringo writes:
But you never do argue. You just assert. Is that because there is no actual argument?
There is, but you will claim that I dont have an original thought and simply parrot the apologists.
Phat writes:
Does He not say that no man comes to the Father but by me?
ringo writes:
He says that no man comes to the Father but by "the way".
Lets examine this.
John 14:1-12 writes:
Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going. 5 Thomas said to him, Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way? 6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.
8 Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus said to him, Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
12 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
Now to be fair, this passage lends support to both of our arguments. Nowhere does it suggest ignoring the messenger or throwing the Father(and the Son) away.
ringo writes:
What is the way? He was explicit about that. "What must I do to be saved?" "Sell what you have and give to the poor." The Roman church apparently did that.
He was also explicit about how "all nations" will be judged - by what we do for the least of His brethren.
You are right and yet you are not seeing what I see.
Phat writes:
They will realize that Jesus is real. That He lives eternally. And that He is the Head and they are part of His body.
ringo writes:
Again, Matthew 25 says nothing of the kind. It's all lies made up by apologists to fit their made-up scenario.
Why are you guys so hard on the apologists? Why do accuse them of lying? Perhaps you dont understand that God cannot lie and that satan is the father of lies.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by ringo, posted 06-17-2020 11:29 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by ringo, posted 06-18-2020 11:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 334 of 794 (877647)
06-19-2020 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Tangle
06-19-2020 5:24 AM


Future Proof Is At Best Speculative
Oh snap. You mean this:
World Bible Society President Says 'Rapture' Likely to Occur by 2021 though I notice that the article was written in 2012.
quote:
Dr. F. Kenton Beshore became a Christian at age 5 and gave his first sermon at age 17 on the Second Coming. He was ordained at age 19 at Bellview Baptist Church in Memphis, Tenn., and pastored churches most of his life. Dr. David L. Cooper was Beshore's mentor for 10 years at the Biblical Research Society. Beshore began a daily radio ministry in 1954 -- the Bible Institute of the Air -- and today he is the president of the World Bible Society. Beshore -- along with his college roommate, Left Behind series co-author Tim LaHaye and Lindsey -- are considered the fathers of the modern Bible prophecy movement. Beshore has been married to his wife Lois for 65 years and they have three children, 11 grandchildren and five great-grandchildren.
For the record,, I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, came to earth to die for us if necessary (and it was) was raised from the dead and exists eternally as a testimony to the truth and purpose of God. Do I believe that the Bible is perfectly authentic and without error?
Well..I believe that Jesus is the living Word. I believe that some of the Bible is metaphorical but that this does not make it any less true. I believe that though humans authored the Bible, it was inspired to them by God through Jesus Christ.
Keep in mind that we all live in the same world. concepts such as Heaven, Living Christ, Spiritual Warfare, and Raptures are quite serious beliefs and DO require serious evidence. I was blessed to have gotten saved and met God. I was also blessed to have experienced the supernatural manifestations of spiritual warfare. Granted only once so far, though I witnessed more and am challenging myself through meeting Pastors who have encountered such activity more than I have. You might argue that I need to hang around people like you more often so as to balance my fevered brain, but I am following my heart and my intuitive belief. You guys would likely unconsciously try and kill my faith.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2020 5:24 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2020 1:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 335 of 794 (877648)
06-19-2020 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Tangle
06-19-2020 11:29 AM


Raptured
Tangle writes:
If you think I'm reading that drivel again, you're out of you mind...but we'll know in 18 months. I wonder if he'll take a bet?...
I know I wouldn't.
I am careeful when people set dates. God is quite capable of changing them. Your next questions should be these:
  • If God exists, why try and fool us?
  • If God exists and wants me(Tangle) to know, why not simply show me?

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 333 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2020 11:29 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 337 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2020 2:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 338 of 794 (877651)
    06-19-2020 2:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 336 by Tangle
    06-19-2020 1:52 PM


    Re: Future Proof Is At Best Speculative
    Who are you trying to convince? Me or you? And what has any of that blather got to do with anything I said?
    You mentioned taking a bet. Bets are based on chance. My belief does not incorporate chance into the equation at all.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 336 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2020 1:52 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 339 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2020 2:43 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 340 of 794 (877694)
    06-20-2020 11:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 339 by Tangle
    06-19-2020 2:43 PM


    Re: Future Proof Is At Best Speculative
    Save it for your church
    I believe in freedom of speech. One can always change the channel, respond only to posts that they choose, or ignore the media. One of these days, the secular humanist ideologues will attempt to shut down preaching because they will claim it can cause harm to rationally minded thinking. As if they have any sort of monopoly on that!
    So now...what are we ever going to argue about, Tangle? Any ideas?

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 339 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2020 2:43 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 342 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2020 11:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 343 by ringo, posted 06-20-2020 12:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 341 of 794 (877695)
    06-20-2020 11:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 331 by vimesey
    06-19-2020 5:32 AM


    Burden Of Proof 101
    thats a good observation. I know jar hates this bumper sticker, but I will repeat it just to annoy him:
    Not Perfect..Just Forgiven
    These Christian apologists shoot themselves in the foot by showing their motives. The question is whether making money or sharing the truth is their primary motivation.
    Scripture also tells us to Test The spirits.
    And you will find that it is wissee to test those whom agree with you as well as your opponents.
    One apologist has evolved their thinking and i'm proud of him for doing so.
    He maintains that the burden of proof is not simply on the one making the claim---the burden of proof is on both sides. (or should be)
    And I agree with that.
    You cant simply wait for evidence and logic to speak for themselves...they are but words. It is important for you to examine your worldview and test it as if you were opposed to it.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 331 by vimesey, posted 06-19-2020 5:32 AM vimesey has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 344 by ringo, posted 06-20-2020 12:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 345 by jar, posted 06-20-2020 1:07 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 346 of 794 (877706)
    06-20-2020 3:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 345 by jar
    06-20-2020 1:07 PM


    Re: Burden Of Proof 101
    jar writes:
    It is important for you to examine your worldview and test it as if you were opposed to it.
    OK, but allow me to ask some questions.
  • Is my worldview unique or is it simply lumped in with the collective worldview of the apologists? For the record, I dont believe that Christianity should be conflated with politics, except in the altruistic sense of helping those less fortunate.
  • What specifically am I to oppose about my worldview? Having strongly believed that I came into communion with the living Christ, I would be hard pressed to throw that away. I would even go so far as to ask whats wrong with that belief?
    I've heard your answers. I disagree with some and agree with others. My Christian worldview is applicable to a subset of Christians yet is also personally unique. I DO believe that Jesus is Gods character and that it would be hard to throw that away and agree with a consensus that there is(are) many ways to God, Nirvana, Enlightenment or Inner Peace.
    To be honest, its not easy taking the opposing point of view.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 345 by jar, posted 06-20-2020 1:07 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 347 by jar, posted 06-20-2020 3:39 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 348 of 794 (877735)
    06-21-2020 9:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 347 by jar
    06-20-2020 3:39 PM


    Re: Burden Of Proof 101
    I attempted to get a grasp of what it was that you guys were suggesting I do. After a bit of searching online in order to understand the task, I found this argument:
    The Falsification Mindset: How to Change Your Own Mind
    Some key points:
  • Basically, when you gain a perspective or theory, you tend to interpret everything as confirming that idea. Whatever seems to contradict it is tossed aside or somehow contorted to fit our beliefs. (Confirmation Bias)
  • As a way to cure this ill of self-confirming theories and belief systems, he (Popper) came up with what is now called falsificationism: the idea that a theory or belief system can only be scientific if it clearly lays out what specific evidence would prove it wrong.
    Reading further:
    Why is falsification important?
  • it helps you to avoid many cognitive biases that can hinder intellectual growth and good decision making
  • it makes you a clearer thinker by forcing you to be specific about what you think you know, and what evidence you have
  • it boosts your creative thinking by making you naturally more receptive to new ideas and helping you more quickly process them
    At this point, my gut level reaction was that if I can falsify my assurance that something is most definitely true, I have weakened my certainty of faith!
    In addition, I have never believed that Evidence is even a needed part of the equation.
    However, the article goes on to say:
    quote:
    Our minds tend to run headlong toward safety and comfort. This is true with regards to physical safety and comfort but it’s also true of intellectual safety and certainty. If we feel like we know something for sure like we have a firm grasp of it we want to hold on to that feeling.
    Because we want to hold on to that feeling, we tend to manufacture certainty by either stopping the search for new information (fearful that it might endanger our feeling of certainty) or interpreting new information in a way that keeps supporting our feeling of certainty.
    Those practices stifles creative thinking, intellectual growth, and personal growth.

    I'm finally beginning to understand what you always meant when you told me to throw God away. I will say that this type of introspection can be quite uncomfortable and angst ridden.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 347 by jar, posted 06-20-2020 3:39 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 349 by jar, posted 06-21-2020 9:41 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 350 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2020 9:44 AM Phat has replied
     Message 418 by Stile, posted 06-29-2020 12:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024