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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1486 of 2073 (877663)
06-19-2020 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1485 by ringo
06-19-2020 4:22 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
Kleinman writes:
If they are real scientists, why haven't they given the correct mathematical explanation for the Kishony and Lenski evolution experiments?
ringo writes:
So you know better than every scientist? That smells cranky.
On this issue, yes. If you think there is some scientist out there who claims my explanation is incorrect, have them explain why. When I wrote my initial papers on this subject, the editors asked me to write an explanation suitable for a layman to understand, you can read that explanation here:
Page not found - Stats & Data Science Views
At the bottom of the page gives the panel of expert mathematicians who review this work. Geneticists and evolutionary biologists have bungled the mathematics of evolution and I know where they have made their errors. And by their blunders on correctly explaining the mathematics of DNA evolution, they are harming people with drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments. Their mathematics stinks like a corpse.
Kleinman writes:
That's right! But if you do the mathematical modeling correctly, you can predict the behavior of a physical system.
ringo writes:
Only if the model is based on accurate observations of reality. The mathematics is always secondary.
You can start with that the math I've presented correctly models the Kishony and Lenski experiments. In fact, I published the math for the Kishony experiment before he ran his experiment. You can read the papers here:
Just a moment...
and
Just a moment...
You can also read the paper which explains why combination therapy works for the treatment of hiv here:
Just a moment...
Feel free to post any empirical examples of DNA evolution that behave differently than the math I've presented. I'm just finishing another paper that shows the error that population geneticists have made with the application of Markov Chain mathematics and show how to do the mathematics correctly. Your problem is that you don't have either the training or experience to critically analyze evolutionary phenomenon and neither do the so-called scientists you claim are experts on this subject. If they were, they would have long ago explained how drug-resistant microbes evolve and why cancer treatments fail. Lenski has been working on his experiment for over 30 years yet he has never correctly modeled his experiment. You have to go to my paper if you want to see how to mathematically model evolution under his experimental conditions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1485 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 4:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1487 by Straggler, posted 06-19-2020 7:04 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 1498 by ringo, posted 06-20-2020 12:27 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 1487 of 2073 (877668)
06-19-2020 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1486 by Kleinman
06-19-2020 5:10 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
So let’s assume you are correct. Let’s assume that evolution - AKA descent of all species on Earth from common ancestry - is mathematically impossible.
What’s your alternate explanation for the existence of mammals and reptiles and insects and birds? How did different species come about? How did different kinds(?) come to be? How does this alternate explanation account for the fact that all known life shares the same genetic code? And how likely is that in terms of your statistical analysis?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1486 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 5:10 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1488 by jar, posted 06-19-2020 7:12 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 1489 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 7:37 PM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1488 of 2073 (877669)
06-19-2020 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1487 by Straggler
06-19-2020 7:04 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
LOL
The answer is simple;
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today,
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1487 by Straggler, posted 06-19-2020 7:04 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1489 of 2073 (877670)
06-19-2020 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1487 by Straggler
06-19-2020 7:04 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
Straggler writes:
So let’s assume you are correct. Let’s assume that evolution - AKA descent of all species on Earth from common ancestry - is mathematically impossible.
What’s your alternate explanation for the existence of mammals and reptiles and insects and birds? How did different species come about? How did different kinds(?) come to be? How does this alternate explanation account for the fact that all known life shares the same genetic code? And how likely is that in terms of your statistical analysis?
That's not my job. I have to deal with problems of evolution, in particular, drug resistant infections. And the present explanation of how evolution works being given to naive school children is incredibly harmful and wasteful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1487 by Straggler, posted 06-19-2020 7:04 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1490 by Coragyps, posted 06-19-2020 9:20 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 1491 by AZPaul3, posted 06-19-2020 9:46 PM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 1496 by Straggler, posted 06-20-2020 3:48 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 755 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 1490 of 2073 (877672)
06-19-2020 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1489 by Kleinman
06-19-2020 7:37 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
But you have no alternative explanation for Straggler?
Hmmm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1489 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 7:37 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1492 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 10:20 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1491 of 2073 (877673)
06-19-2020 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1489 by Kleinman
06-19-2020 7:37 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
And you think that complaining about it here at EvC is going change things for you?
You've published your math and your laments to your community and they didn't care.
Why should we?

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1489 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 7:37 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1492 of 2073 (877674)
06-19-2020 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1490 by Coragyps
06-19-2020 9:20 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
Coragyps writes:
But you have no alternative explanation for Straggler?
Hmmm.
It's not my job to give you alternative explanations. If you want to believe in some childish mythology such as reptiles evolving into birds and fish evolving into mammals, go for it. Just don't indoctrinate naive school children with such nonsense. Look what it has done to AZPaul3's mind. He's a walking billboard that social promotion is a complete failure. The best he can do telling us the number of replications for a beneficial mutation to occur is somewhere between 1 and infinity. At least Taq could figure that one out. It make you wonder how much worse our educational system can get.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1490 by Coragyps, posted 06-19-2020 9:20 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1493 by AZPaul3, posted 06-19-2020 10:29 PM Kleinman has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1493 of 2073 (877675)
06-19-2020 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1492 by Kleinman
06-19-2020 10:20 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
It make you wonder how much worse our educational system can get.
You're making that quite obvious.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1492 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 10:20 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1494 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 10:45 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1494 of 2073 (877676)
06-19-2020 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1493 by AZPaul3
06-19-2020 10:29 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
AZPaul3 writes:
You're making that quite obvious.
A precision thought from the mind of AZPaul3, "From a minimum of 1 to an indeterminate maximum." Give AZPaul3 a trophy and advance him one grade.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1493 by AZPaul3, posted 06-19-2020 10:29 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1495 by AZPaul3, posted 06-20-2020 12:57 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1495 of 2073 (877677)
06-20-2020 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1494 by Kleinman
06-19-2020 10:45 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
Thank you for the promotion. Now back to the subject at hand.
Message 1491
If your own colleagues don't care what you think what makes you think we should?

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1494 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 10:45 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 1496 of 2073 (877678)
06-20-2020 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1489 by Kleinman
06-19-2020 7:37 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
Not my job... What a cop-out.
Meanwhile the job of science teachers is to teach the best evidenced and scientifically accepted explanation for the observable phenomena in question.
Are you suggesting that kids should be taught that the existence of birds, mammals, reptiles etc. is a complete scientific mystery with no evidenced explanation? Are you suggesting that all of the geological evidence, fossil evidence and dna evidence pertaining to common ancestry should simply be ignored? Or even be deemed refuted because you’ve got some stats? Really?
If not evolution - What is it you are proposing be taught in school with regard to the origin of species? Please do tell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1489 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 7:37 PM Kleinman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1497 by AZPaul3, posted 06-20-2020 8:11 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 1504 by dad, posted 06-21-2020 2:51 PM Straggler has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(6)
Message 1497 of 2073 (877683)
06-20-2020 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1496 by Straggler
06-20-2020 3:48 AM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
You've been gone a while, Straggler.
Welcome back.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1496 by Straggler, posted 06-20-2020 3:48 AM Straggler has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1498 of 2073 (877698)
06-20-2020 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1486 by Kleinman
06-19-2020 5:10 PM


Re: Really no hatred of your beliefs but a lot of stupidity
Kleinman writes:
If you think there is some scientist out there who claims my explanation is incorrect, have them explain why.
Why should they waste their time on a crank? Publish a whole flock of papers; convince some real scientists that you're right. That's how science works.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1486 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 5:10 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
driewerf
Junior Member
Posts: 29
Joined: 08-14-2010


(2)
Message 1499 of 2073 (877699)
06-20-2020 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by mike the wiz
11-02-2014 5:09 PM


quote:
People should be given the right to decide for themselves if all of these marvels could create themselves, as a whole, rather than the invocation of the evolutions. I see no problem in telling the student all of the facts, and letting them decide for themselves. If they then believe evolution could make a Blastocyst turn into a Giraffe over a period of months, and think no intelligence is involved, then obviously that can be their choice, but they shouldn't be duped into accepting false-dichotomies, nor should they accept the No-True-Scotsman Fallacy, by being told that only phoney scientists don't accept evolution.
Should this "right" to decide be limited to the subject or evolution, or shall we expand it to all sciences? Should people have the "right" to reject heliocentrism? Quantum physics? Decide to accept (or believe) the Phlogiston "theory"?
And how would you organize education if half of the class adopts a wide range of "theories"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by mike the wiz, posted 11-02-2014 5:09 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1500 by AZPaul3, posted 06-20-2020 1:15 PM driewerf has not replied
 Message 1501 by dwise1, posted 06-20-2020 3:58 PM driewerf has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1500 of 2073 (877704)
06-20-2020 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1499 by driewerf
06-20-2020 12:30 PM


You're talking a Philosophy of Education and since I choose to not believe in philosophy your question has no meaning.
Well, that was easy. I can see a lot of HS seniors not believing in calculus that final year.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1499 by driewerf, posted 06-20-2020 12:30 PM driewerf has not replied

  
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