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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 351 of 794 (877748)
06-21-2020 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Straggler
06-21-2020 9:44 AM


Re: Burden Of Proof 101
Speaking as a believer (and by this I mean someone who became (or thought he became) Born Again and filled with Gods Spirit) falsification of such a tangible and real experience will have to be allowed and initiated by the Spirit of God Himself. You guys just dont understand how personal and close God is to me. I'm not talking about the dogma, nor the teachings of the church-at-large nor of the fervent people surrounding me (at a 6 foot social distance) and singing to Him in church---though all of that serves to fuel a confirmation bias. I'm talking about my private prayer life and time of meditation, introspection, and communion.
This is most definitely something I would not seek to falsify unless the Holy Spirit gave me a subtle thumbs up that it was not harmful to do so.
Does that make any sense to you from your perspective and if not why not?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2020 9:44 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2020 1:42 PM Phat has replied
 Message 355 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2020 2:01 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 354 of 794 (877755)
06-21-2020 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by jar
06-21-2020 1:18 PM


Re: From today's service
As I listened to a few recordings and versions of the Venite, I began to meditate and commune with God as I understand Him. If you recall, I used to (and still do in my fleshier moments) accuse you of being obtuse and private in your refusal to discuss your own personal relationship with God,Jesus, and the Holy Spirit and because of your refusal I was led to believe that you didnt have a relationship. In fact, you always asked (and ask) me how such a relationship would even be possible.
The Venite 609
So just now, I meditated on this morning prayer of which you speak. I paid attention to the beauty of the expression of faith that was more a discipline and less raw charismatic emotion. I thought to myself how, if God exists (which I believe He does) and if He judges the thoughts and intents of the human heart, singing such a prayer as a daily discipline would serve the purpose of emptying my mind of the daily wish list that I normally would discuss with God and would instead focus on my adoration and respect for Him rather than my expectation of a favoring cosmic Father whom I took for granted.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by jar, posted 06-21-2020 1:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by jar, posted 06-21-2020 3:44 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 356 of 794 (877758)
06-21-2020 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Tangle
06-21-2020 1:42 PM


Re: Burden Of Proof 101
But how can you say with 100% certainty that it is a delusion? Why is the idea that my beliefs are a delusion itself not falsifiable?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2020 1:42 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2020 4:59 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 357 of 794 (877759)
06-21-2020 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Straggler
06-21-2020 2:01 PM


Re: Burden Of Proof 101
Straggler writes:
But I’m sure that in my case if I held such beliefs there would be a nagging part of me wondering if the reason I was so resistant, and the reason the beliefs themselves seemed so designed to be avoid falsification, was because they weren’t actually true....
I like the honesty. There should be a "nagging part" of us that remains unconvinced (or brainwashed, as it were)
And I say "brainwashed" to make you guys laugh---the believers would not laugh. They would never entertain such a notion for it would threaten their very sanity.
Look, I got saved in 1993 and have been quite convinced, resisting doubt, defending my faith as any good apologist would do, and encouraging others to share my faith with me. One strong reason that I choose to continue to believe the way that I do is because there have been many many times...too numerous to count---where scripture spoke to me in a way that no other book can or has done for me. You would likely chalk it up to confirmation bias, however.
Have you ever known any friends who were or are strong believers? Do you get along with them?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2020 2:01 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Straggler, posted 06-21-2020 5:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 361 of 794 (877813)
06-22-2020 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by jar
06-21-2020 1:18 PM


Re: From today's service
jar writes:
Read that carefully Phat and think about what it actually says. It is "The Venite", the "Oh Come". It is a part of what is known as "Morning Prayer", a service to begin each Christian's day.
But it is also in many ways (in direct) opposition to the God that you market.
I dont yet see why.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by jar, posted 06-21-2020 1:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by jar, posted 06-22-2020 8:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 363 of 794 (877815)
06-22-2020 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Tangle
06-21-2020 4:59 PM


Re: Burden Of Proof 101
Tangle writes:
Because you think you're talking to an invisible being. That pretty much does it.
Well it certainly seems saner than thinking I was talking to a visible being. My personal opinion is that statues, icons, shrouds, and priests get in the way of such a communion. And I dont really sense an "invisible being" so much as I sense an omnipresent Being. Of course I know that there is no evidence of anyone in my apartment...nor any more so when I kneel at an altar or reflect quietly on a ledge in the crisp morning air of the mountains...or sit by the sea. Invisible is fine with me...I wouldn't expect it to be any other way.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2020 4:59 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2020 10:23 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 365 of 794 (877910)
06-23-2020 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by Tangle
06-22-2020 10:23 AM


Re: Burden Of Proof 101
It couldn't be any other way could it? If it was visible you wouldn't be delusional, you would be having a normal conversation with a real person.
What if it was not visible yet was distinctly tangible? How do we test for that?
The problem here is that you use a static method of determining reality...which is of course evidence of absence. What you have done, however, is to conclude that since A does not exist and since the patient proclaims the existence of A, the patient *must* be delusional. Granted this may be true in 99 out of 100 models, but it is not proof that there is no such thing as A.
Science can not rule out the possibility that God exists nor can science even test for the existence of God using their own biased minds to do so.
AddByEdit: Now I will allow that science can make the test as unbiased as possible, but I feel that if we had an equal number of believing scientists as we did atheist or unbelieving scientists, our conclusions may be interpreted differently depending on which group was reporting.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2020 10:23 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2020 12:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 369 by ringo, posted 06-24-2020 10:28 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 366 of 794 (877913)
06-23-2020 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by jar
06-21-2020 3:44 PM


Using Poppers Ideas In Understanding The Morning Prayer
OK lets look at this from Poppers theory of falsification and the opposite tendency towards confirmation bias.
Come, let us sing to the Lord; *
let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.
My usual belief would be to say that God is omnipresent and thus we are gathered together to sing to Him and to shout for joy to Him and for him. Falsification may tell me that there is no evidence that God is actually present but that the point is for the people to celebrate belief in His reality in Communion (and song) with each other.
Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving *
and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.
I would usually emphasize His presence. Falsification would likely emphasize the word us and would support your belief that Christianity is about what *we* do and not about what we expect *Him* to do.
For the Lord is a great God, *
and a great King above all gods.
In his hand are the caverns of the earth, *
and the heights of the hills are his also.
The sea is his, for he made it, *
and his hands have molded the dry land.
Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, *
and kneel before the Lord our Maker.
For he is our God,
and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. *
I would say that He is so huge...so absolutely BIG and that we need to get in one accord and worship Him. Falsification may suggest that this is a metaphor for reality and that though we humans may collectively believe that God is reality, the evidence would again suggest that it is *we* who need to do the work. After all, we are His body and if we do the work it allows Him to do the work.
Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice!
I hope that by slowing down and rereading the poem with a deeper reverence and perspective, I did hear His voice. Thanks for guiding me to see this another way than my usual knee-jerk beliefs.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by jar, posted 06-21-2020 3:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by jar, posted 06-23-2020 2:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 370 of 794 (877988)
06-24-2020 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by jar
06-23-2020 2:06 PM


Re: Using Poppers Ideas In Understanding The Morning Prayer
OK I read it again. About all I can add is that *we* are the sheep of His hand. In other words, symbolically we are His hand.
If I am missing anything else, it may be revealed to me eventually, were I to make such a prayer a daily practice. And though I see the metaphor, I give His mind the kudos for directing "His" Hand. Perhaps the idea is that we *all* are his people, I dunno.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by jar, posted 06-23-2020 2:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by jar, posted 06-24-2020 12:40 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 372 of 794 (878041)
06-25-2020 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by jar
06-24-2020 12:40 PM


Re: Using Poppers Ideas In Understanding The Morning Prayer
why though? Honestly I have read it several times. Its not that long.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by jar, posted 06-24-2020 12:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 06-25-2020 7:35 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 374 of 794 (878047)
06-25-2020 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by jar
06-25-2020 7:35 AM


jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Evidently this prayer is more akin to the God you market than it is to the God I market. (Reading it again)... OK I found this.
Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving *
and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.
I believe that His presence is not confined to a symbolic table of bread and wine. I believe that God is *with* everyone on the planet and *In* those who have asked Him to commune with them. Communion is symbolic to be sure, but it is also very tangible and actual for a believer.
(continues reading)
For the Lord is a great God, *
and a great King above all gods.
This reminds me of your GOD, God, and god expression. I would disagree with the precise wording, saying that the Lord(aka Jesus) is a great GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen. Supported through scripture as being with God in the beginning. I could care less what other religions say and think that GOD is---for to me, they worship gods unless they too have been made aware of the real One. (sorry, im being honest....I believe in exclusivity when it comes to God. This will eventually cause friction between the global inclusiveness and the Christian exclusiveness...down the road)
Also keep in mind that my thoughts on the prayer and what it must mean for the Episcopal Church vs what it means to me may differ from day to day. I believe but cannot KNOW that my idea of GOD is the real One or not...though I suspect that the podcasts that I listen to contain a revealed truth and anointing that your garden variety critical thinker who attends Episcopal Church simply does not have (largely because they have already consciously rejected exclusivity)
(continues reading)
For he is our God,
and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand.
If by that they honestly acknowledge that the God of that congregation is unique only to them and that the Club they are in is not the only club there is or the one that is the best, they will be patted on the back for being politically correct and empathetic to other beliefs. As for me and my group? We believe that if we fast and pray, GOD will reveal Himself to us and the rest of the people on this rock better either catch up or suffer the consequences. Granted just saying this stuff and being honest shows me my blatant exclusivity. But whats so wrong with exclusivity? This whole live and let live kum-ba-yah thing where everyone has a right to be different clashes with End Times Charismatic Christian Exclusivity.
There I said it.
you have skimmed it selecting only the pieces parts that make you happy.
Guilty as charged. Please pray for me that I may become better enlightened.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 06-25-2020 7:35 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by jar, posted 06-25-2020 8:52 AM Phat has replied
 Message 376 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2020 2:22 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 378 of 794 (878081)
06-25-2020 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by jar
06-25-2020 2:36 PM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Nonsense. God does not condemn anyone. They condemn themselves by choosing the wrong spirit to follow. If you limit the description of God to the logos of the book, you limit your understanding. If you allow Rhema to describe and explain Him to your own satisfaction (or even to challenge you) you are closer to the truth. I realize that you employ logic, reason, and reality over blatant emotionalism and this is wise, but you also dont seem to understand that people DO get touched by the Holy Spirit. Maybe you were always too busy questioning to trust that koolaid (or Orange Nehi) and you said it yourself once: We are the product of our experiences. The God I market does not favor me, but He also does not simply let people keep their bad habits and accept them anyway. Some stuff has to go. Some people think that inclusivity is more honorable for God than exclusivity but ask yourself if you would let just anyone in your house who needed a place to stay?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by jar, posted 06-25-2020 2:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by jar, posted 06-25-2020 2:56 PM Phat has replied
 Message 386 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2020 3:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 380 of 794 (878083)
06-25-2020 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by jar
06-25-2020 8:52 AM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
The people of the book! Yes...I feel that simply calling them "people of the book" implies exclusivity. And I argue that exclusivity is in line with an exclusive God versus an irrational inclusive higher power or "force".

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by jar, posted 06-25-2020 8:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by jar, posted 06-25-2020 3:00 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 381 of 794 (878084)
06-25-2020 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by jar
06-25-2020 2:56 PM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Is God the creator of all that is, seen and unseen?
Yes, we believe so. Despite tangles claims, I believe that God existed before trees and hence before the book was even written.
Is God omniscient?
All knowing? That gets a bit deeper and more philosophical but yes...I believe that God knows the thoughts and intentions of every human heart. Some would argue that He only knows what we have decided to believe and do up to the present moment and that the future is yet to be determined...at least on our end. As to what He knows regarding the future, that is His business. We cant call Him evil if we dont know that He foreknows who gets damned or not now can we?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by jar, posted 06-25-2020 2:56 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 383 of 794 (878086)
06-25-2020 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by jar
06-25-2020 3:00 PM


Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
Not sure where you are going here....

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by jar, posted 06-25-2020 3:00 PM jar has not replied

  
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