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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 128 of 220 (877844)
06-22-2020 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by AZPaul3
06-21-2020 6:39 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi AZ,
AZ writes:
Einstein's blunder was not in adding a cosmological constant to GR but was in ignoring what his equations were telling him.
I don't know what Einstein was thinking.
But he did know and believe the first law of thermodynamics that energy could not be created. That gave him a problem as it does me. I can only come up with two possibilities for the energy to exist. It was either eternal in existence or it had to be created. But it can't be created according to the laws of Physics. That means I have to accept God provided the energy. Einstein could not believe that so he adjusted his equations to show the universe was eternal and static.
So when Hubble discovered the universe was expanding in every direction from us the second law of thermodynamics comes into effect requiring the universe to have a beginning to exist.
So the move to the beginning to exist theory came about but a lot of things had to be ignored. Like where did the energy come from that produced the universe.
Assumption made that the universe was a self contained universe with nothing outside. Assumption made that this universe existed at T=10-44 . Nobody has an answer as to how it got there, it just is.
AZ writes:
There isn't any. There never was. The only thing we have are speculations.
That sounds to me like I hope that is the way it is. But that is not the thoughts that are presented.
It has been assumed the energy was there and where or how it got there is of no consequence.
That sounds like accepting something by faith. Although I have been told there is not accepted in science by faith.
AZ writes:
As you keep pointing out thermodynamics requires entropy to be very low and energy to be exceptionally high at the beginning in order for this universe to operate as we see it today.
Actually I am trying to point out that if the universe had a beginning to exist in the BB a source of energy would be required to produce the universe in which we live as the energy could not be created.
That is the reason Guth proposed a zero energy universe that was never accepted.
I am also trying to point out that if the universe is eternal in existence it has to have an eternal unlimited source of power to exist as we see it today.
I know this flies in the face of everything you have been taught.
I am just trying to look at the statements of the laws of physics and determine if what I have read and studied concerning the beginning to exist of the universe.
Let me state what I believe and see if I can clear up some misconceptions.
I believe the universe is eternal in existence but not necessarily in the form we see it today.
I believe that an entity that has been called God is the creator of the universe and has a unlimited supply of energy. This entity also supplies everything that is required to hold the universe together.
I believe the universe as we know it was created in one light period sometime in eternity past. Genesis 1:1 tells us that God created the heavens and earth. Genesis 2:4 tells us that was accomplished in one light period. The history of that day is recorded in Genesis 2:4-4:24.
There was no darkness on earth until we find it at Genesis 1:2 which ended day one when the second light period ended that darkness.
If you ask me how old the heavens and the earth are. I will say I don't know. You might say are you comfortable with 13.8 billion years old. I would say it is probably a lot older than that.
I think you can get from that I am not a YEC.
AZ writes:
Your contention that *our* physics extends back before 10-44 and precludes such high energy at the beginning is obviously false since the big bang inflationary state stems from precisely this condition.
Did I miss something somewhere. When did the inflation hypothesis reach consensus?
AZ writes:
Are you saying extensions of physical timelines and conditions based on our demonstrably reliable equations and simulations are assumptions and not observations?
What timelines are you talking about.
I am saying that until 300,000 years after T=0 you can't observe anything. Anything you believe took place or existed before that 300,000 is nothing but a guess. And anything you build a theory or hypothesis on is an assumption. You have to assume that what you believe is true.
AZ writes:
The point remains that the science limits the math we can use.
I thought reality is what did the limiting. We don't live in a fantasy world.
AZ writes:
Your misunderstanding of Dr. Hawking's lecture seems intractable
There is nothing hard to understand what he said.
He said the laws of Physics would determine how the universe would begin.
The first law of thermodynamics affirms energy can not be created.
The beginning of the universe to exist would require lots of energy be created.
If energy can't be created it has to be eternal in existence.
AZ writes:
Your contention that he claims our physics transcends the point where they cease to function is ludicrous.
He is the one (not me) that said the laws of Physics would determine how the universe began to exist. That requires the laws to be outside of the universe.
AZ writes:
This has become another doctrine of your personal religious catechism, hasn't it.
I don't have a religious catechism.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by AZPaul3, posted 06-21-2020 6:39 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 129 of 220 (877846)
06-22-2020 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by AZPaul3
06-22-2020 2:40 PM


Re: AZ
Hi AZ,
Where would you purpose the energy could come from in your rant?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by AZPaul3, posted 06-22-2020 2:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by AZPaul3, posted 06-22-2020 5:33 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 131 of 220 (877851)
06-22-2020 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ringo
06-22-2020 3:32 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
Sure, it could be wrong. Sure, it might change some day. What makes you think it would change BACK to a view that has already been proven wrong?
What view are you referring too?
ringo writes:
It has already been pointed out to you that our laws of physics only date back to the Big Bang.
Didn't Hawking say the laws of Physics would determine how the universe began to exist?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ringo, posted 06-22-2020 3:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 06-22-2020 4:23 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 134 by AZPaul3, posted 06-22-2020 5:36 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 135 of 220 (877884)
06-22-2020 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by AZPaul3
06-22-2020 5:36 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi AZ,
AZ writes:
Dr. Hawking also said the universe would reverse back to a big crunch.
I thought he said: "if the universe satisfied the no boundary condition."
it would end in a big crunch.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by AZPaul3, posted 06-22-2020 5:36 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 136 of 220 (877925)
06-23-2020 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by AZPaul3
06-22-2020 5:33 PM


Re: AZ
Hi AZ,
AZ writes:
As I said in Message 124 there is no evidence of any kind for the beginning, how t=0 came about. All there are, all there may ever be, are speculations.
I did not ask for evidence. I asked for your opinion of a possible source that could produce the energy that had to exist that began to expand?
According to the first law of thermodynamics energy can not be created.
So to get around that law it has to be dispensed with so that energy could be created.
If the universe is all that there is as has been stated many times having no outside. Energy had to exist or be created in and from the universe. Since the laws of Physics is operational in the universe how do we dispense with the 1st law of thermodynamics in the universe to allow the energy to be created.
The energy would have to be created outside of the universe prior to the universe existing in order for the energy to be used to form the universe. Where it would be possible for the laws of the universe to be dispensed with.
But if the energy that the universe was formed from was formed in the universe it would have been subject to the laws of the universe. That energy would have to have formed between T=0 and T=10-44 as the universe existed at T=10-44.
So my observation is that the energy had to exist prior to the existence of the universe or had to be created instantly at T=0 as it was expanding at T=10-44.
There have been attempts to overcome this problem.
Guth proposed a zero energy universe which created zero energy that formed the universe as was needed during formation. REJECTED
Hartley/ Hawking instanton. REJECTED It would require a vacuum to begin to exist.
String theory proposed but never caught on. It would have required a vacuum for the branes to pop into existence in and bang together.
Inflation was invented to solve the 18 major problems with the standard theory. It is a totally assumed event. In March of 2014 it was announced evidence had been found to support inflation. In January 2015 that article was updated to say it was not what they expected. In other words they jumped to conclusions that did not bear out what they thought it did.
In conclusion:
We are still stuck at T=10-44 and everybody has stopped looking for real answers and are looking for answers that will agree with what they have been taught and what they believe.
Glad to see you agree that scientist can be wrong.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by AZPaul3, posted 06-22-2020 5:33 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 06-23-2020 1:53 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 138 of 220 (877930)
06-23-2020 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by AZPaul3
06-22-2020 5:33 PM


Re: AZ
Hi AZ,
AZ writes:
What I do know is that ancient peoples all over the world sought to explain the world in the face of their ignorance and invented deities and creation stories based on nothing but the visions and insistences of what we today would call religious zealots.
Have you ever entertained the idea that they had that belief because they had been told stories of the creation events that had been passed down by word of mouth. You do know that there has never been a people discovered in the world that did not worship some kind of God. Are you then trying to tell me that they all invented a god to worship?
AZ writes:
We know how the forces and the quarks condensed out of the intense energies that existed after the inflationary epoch.
I thought quarks was energy. You can get 8 time the energy from the fusion of quarks you can get from Nuclear Fusion.
Are you sure that quarks are not energy but are formed by energy. If so what is energy?
How do you know the inflationary epoch took place? Please present
evidence.
AZ writes:
My hope, my speculation, is that as human intellect and technology progress we will uncover the physics that answers the origins questions.
Is it possible in this polarized society we live in to ever discover anything new concerning creation?
If people study any subject with a closed mind they will never find anything they don't already believe. That goes for scientist as well as religious people.
I preach and teach what the original Bible texts say and most religious people can not grasp any of it as they know what they have been taught and what they believe. So if what I say does not agree with what they already believe they do not hear what I say.
Example: Jesus said his body would be in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. He was resurrected as it began to dawn toward the First day of the week. That day followed the Sabbath day which began at 6:00 PM at the close of Saturday. But I am considered a Heretic because I believe Jesus was buried Wednesday prior to 6:00 PM. Which is required for the body to have been in the ground 72 hours (3 days and 3 nights).
Why am I wrong according to most so called Christians in America? Well for some reason Jesus is considered a Liar because the Catholic Church has taught for over 1500 years that He was crucified on Good Friday. That is what people have been taught and what they believe and they don't want to be bothered by the facts so they don't hear them.
Are you sure you are not in the same class with them?
You do seem and I say seem to hope for better answers.
AZ writes:
Unfortunately, I won’t be around to see this play out and I have grave concerns whether humanity will survive long enough to do this.
I also hope and pray that a generation will come along that will have inquisitive minds, take what they are taught with a grain of salt, and then look for the truth for themselves using the mind that God has given to them to reason with.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by AZPaul3, posted 06-22-2020 5:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by AZPaul3, posted 06-23-2020 5:45 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 139 of 220 (877933)
06-23-2020 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Phat
06-23-2020 1:53 PM


Re: AZ
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
I have a question for you though, Pastor. You mentioned before that you were writing a book. Do you see yourself finishing it in the next year?
Probably not as I am having too hard of a time with the chapter that will cover the current scientific view of creation.
Nobody anywhere will discuss and present any evidence for the scientific view. All they want to do is tell me how ignorant and uneducated I am. But they never present any evidence that could convince anybody of what they say they believe. I am sure you have noticed the lack of scientific evidence presented in any post since cavediver's absence. There are other sites that are the same.
I do keep hoping.
If you would like to read a little of the religious side of my book email me and I will send you some of it in Word format. My email is available in my profile. Just put book in the subject line.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 06-23-2020 1:53 PM Phat has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 140 of 220 (877936)
06-23-2020 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by ringo
06-22-2020 4:23 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
The one we're talking about. Don't you read your own posts?
Sure I know what I asked and you assumed I was talking about the static universe of Einstein.
The current view is not proven to be true as was the one of Einstein. But those two are not the only possibilities.
ringo writes:
What has that got to do with it? The laws of physics go back to the Big Bang.
Please explain to me how a set of laws can control the creation of the universe if they did not exist prior to the event of creation.
If they were created as a part of the event they would not have been in control of the event.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 06-22-2020 4:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by ringo, posted 06-23-2020 5:07 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 144 of 220 (877967)
06-24-2020 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by AZPaul3
06-23-2020 5:45 PM


Re: AZ
Hi AZ,
AZ writes:
Isn't this what I said? Ancient peoples invented deities and creation stories.
But why did they create a god?
Why would they invent creation stories?
They had nothing to give them a hint that either took place.
As uneducated as they were and uncivilized as they had no phones, TV's, auto's, planes, or even houses. Yet they had the imagination to invent gods and creation stories.
AZ writes:
All matter is energy in a different form and vice versa.
Energy can form matter, and matter can be turned into energy, yes.
AZ writes:
Quarks are fermions. Matter particles.
And yes quark fusion produces 8 times the energy of nuclear fusion.
Quark fusion produces eight times more energy than nuclear fusion - GlobalGoodness
AZ writes:
You're as able to search for those sites as am I, Reverend.
Yes and I did. I can't find anything that can begin to convince me inflation took place. I do find a lot of negative reports on inflation.
If inflation started up and lasted for a nano second or less I have 2 questions.
What started it and what slowed it down?
You do know that inflation in a hypothesis not a theory.
AZ writes:
That polarization is socio-political. It is not part of the scientific process that holds more sway in the larger community of scientists.
You been drinking too much of the koolaid.
AZ writes:
Then you are not close enough to the discipline to understand the checks and balances ALL true Scotsmen Scientists are required to follow.
Close enough to know that money talks. Grants pay salaries and expenses, without the grants there would be no operational money.
And you want to tell me politics has nothing to do with science.
AZ writes:
Your religious fervor is what rules you,
Since you have become an expert on me I would like for you to tell me what I believe and what I teach. It seems like you and Tangle know more about what I believe than I do.
Coddle an 80 year old man and tell me what you think I believe, because I think you got me mixed up with someone else. I await your enlightenment.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by AZPaul3, posted 06-23-2020 5:45 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by AZPaul3, posted 06-24-2020 8:37 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 146 of 220 (878324)
06-29-2020 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by AZPaul3
06-24-2020 8:37 AM


Re: AZ
Hi AZ,
AZ writes:
Good grief, Reverend, I covered this. Pay attention.
I was paying attention. That is the reason I sked the two questions.
I wanted to know why or where they would get a notion to create a deity?
I have a lot of other questions about a creature that evolved from a single cell organism. Like were did the mind evolve from? Where did the conscious evolve from? Where did the imagination come from for a god?
You are the one telling me this creature that is supposed to have evolved from the same ancestors chimps did has a mind, consciousness, and the ability to know good and evil.
So this creature had to make up some god to make up for his deficiencies.
AZ writes:
Sentient beings with an ability for creative abstract thinking
Where and how did that sentient being evolve the afstract thinking ability from?
AZ writes:
So what? Did you scatterbrain on me again?
No I was just making a scientific statement of fact.
Provided two quarks being fused together producing 8 times nuclear fusion the quarks must be energy or did I miss something in the equation?
AZ writes:
That may be so but the mechanism does result in a universe that matches our observations by resolving problems that General Relativity and QFT
That is exactly what I would figure it to do. That is the exact reason that Alan Guth proposed inflation in the first place. In other words he developed a band aid that took care of a lot of the problems with the standard theory.
Problem is there is no evidence for how it began or how it slowed down and now has started increasing. That is something that took place in the imagination of Alan Guth, not in reality or in a lab. Talk about inventing creation stories Guth did because it was necessary as without inflation the BB falls flat on its face.
AZ writes:
The only thing of importance is the efficacy of the physics.
If that is the case why is everybody that disagrees with the main stream thought system get blacklisted and ostracized?
AZ writes:
You believe in phantasms. Gods and demons that are not really there.
I don't believe a figment of the imagination; an illusion or apparition is any more than a figment of the imagination or illusion of the mind.
I do not believe in gods. I do believe in one God. I do believe in demonic beings. I have met both and I prefer Gods presence.
I believe the universe had a beginning to exist as the Bible telle me it did.
The scientific community has been trying to figure out how the universe had a beginning to exist every since Hubble discovered that the universe was expanding, With no results.
If the universe did not exist in any form, it had to have a beginning to exist from non existence. That is an impossibility.
Scientist have proposed an instanton, and branes, as possible sources of the energy used to produce the universe we see today. The problem is that each of those have to have existence in which for them to appear in. Where did that existence come from?
What ever that existence was it required an unending supply of energy to create the universe out of. I call that source God. Science can call that existence whatever they want to call it.
AZ writes:
I don't care what specific dogmas
I don't believe in a dogma I believe in a life style, of trying to follow the example Jesus set.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by AZPaul3, posted 06-24-2020 8:37 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by AZPaul3, posted 06-29-2020 6:17 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 156 by Phat, posted 07-02-2020 6:25 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 148 of 220 (878419)
06-29-2020 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by AZPaul3
06-29-2020 6:17 PM


Re: AZ
HI AZ,
AZ writes:
You contradict yourself. You *do* believe in phantasms. Gods and demons that are not really there. You are just too delusional to recognize your delusion.
I told you I only believe in what I have met.
I have met a demon face to face and cast him out of a person. I have experienced that only one time in my life and no demon has ever dared to confront me since.
I believe in one God and I have met Him in person. I was not dreaming, as I was not asleep. I was wide awake with all my factualities operational.
I don't understand it I just know it happened.
AZ writes:
You believe in Jesus? You believe in his teachings? You believe in the crucifixion? You believe in the resurrection?
That is dogma.
Don't put words in my mouth as you might get me in trouble. I can do well enough on my own in that catagory.
I believe God came to earth in a physical form that was supposed to be called Emanuel which means God with us. Instead that human body was called Jesus for some reason by his earthly mother. On many occasions He claimed to be God. But the uneducated and educated mankind of 2000 years ago could not understand how God could take on the form of a man and come to earth and walk among mankind. Many today can still not understand it.
So let me state what I believe in no uncertain terms.
I believe God left the third heaven and took on the form of a human by entering into the world through a woman in a physical body. He grew, fulfilled the law, and taught His way for mankind to live and He went to Calvary and gave His life by sheding His blood on Calvary to make a way mankind could be reunited in fellowhip with Him. The original fellowship was broken by one man resulting in all mankind being condemned already. His death was to make a way mankind could be reunited with Him. John says it best:
quote:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
So everyone who rejets God and His offering of a free full pardon will remain condemned. Yet all He requires us to do is accept His death to buy us back from the slavery that first man sold us into.
I call that belief by faith just like you accept the universe came to exist by faith and you also believe man evolved from non life by faith. I say you accept what you believe by faith as you have zero evidence for either having occurred as you believe they did.
If I am wrong and you have evidence now would be a good time to present it. Or you can give the scientific answer to both questions of how they began to exist.
I will get to the rest of your post at a later time.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by AZPaul3, posted 06-29-2020 6:17 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by AZPaul3, posted 06-29-2020 11:52 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 152 of 220 (878568)
07-01-2020 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by AZPaul3
06-29-2020 11:52 PM


Re: AZ
Hi AZ,
AZ writes:
We also have equally fantastical stories from those known to be mentally delusional.
Let me try one more story on you and get your take on it.
I retired from working for one of the largest construction companies in the Cayman Islands in October of 2003 and bought a house in the US. I made a down payment and took out a mortgage for $90,000. I had enough set back I could take care of about half of that mortgage on hand. The rest I had no idea where it would come from. My funds to live off of would take care of our normal expenses but not enough to take care of the mortgage also.
We moved into our house December 27, 2003. I wanted to do a lot of work on the house and began those chores. In November of 2004 Hurricane Ivan came through the Cayman's and destroyed all the work on the first floor of the condo's and apartment as well as houses I had provided cabinets for in the past 14 years. There was 7 feet of water in them ruining the cabinets. My old boss wanted me to come down and replace the damaged cabinets and I agreed to do so. I went down on March 15, of 2005 I went by the job site and realized I was about 6 weeks early. I then went on to the parsonage I had built with a prophets chamber which I would stay in while I did the work.
I had not been at the parsonage for 30 minutes before the phone rang and the pastors wife said it is for you. Let me back up a little with my story and tell you what I told my wife to prepare for as I was making a promise to God. I told her that if God would provide the money to pay off our mortgage on the house extra to what I would make doing the replacement for my old boss when I got back to the state's we would spend the rest of our lives helping churches that could not afford a pastor's salary and a place to live.
Back to the island and the phone call. I answered and recognized the voice as a gentleman that had been a great benefactor to the church we attended in the islands. I asked what he needed and he told me he needed at least 22 sets of cabinets as quick and they could be installed. The next day I went by the office and told my boss he did not need my services for at least 6 weeks and could I have permission ( I was on a work permit) to do the work or I could go fishing and he could pay me the $1.000 CI for the six weeks of my fishing. He said do the work. At the end of the six weeks I had made enough to pay off my mortgage, all my expenses for the six weeks and $10,000 CI $12,500 US dollars) All of this except $5000 CI was extra money I did not expect to receive.
I am presently helping the second church that can not afford to pay a pastor a living wage they are able to give me $275 per week which takes care of my expenses on my house and provides a little for us to spend on groceries.
Now you are going to try and tell me all this was just a coincidence. Try as you may you will never convince me these extra funds came about because I promised God to do something for Him if He would provide those funds.
Now give it your best shot without insulting my intelligence. Let me remind you I taught 4 classes during my senior year in High School. I taught first year typing, Senior Bookkeeping, a fourth grade class, and a sixth grade class and maintained a A average in my classes. In four years of college I never received a grade lower than 99. I had a professor that said no one could do a perfect paper. All he had to do was to spend enough time and he could find a place where a comma or period was missing, so he never gave a grade over 99. He was my language teacher.
Now you may think I have a few loose screws that is perfectly OK by me. I want you to know that at 80+ years old I could care less what you think.
I have led a happy full life and I have never done anything I did not want to do. I have enjoyed every minute of my life and if I could go back knowing what I know now, and including what you think and begin my life over I would not change anything because I am very happy right where I am at, at the present moment. So if I die and you and other's here are correct and there is no God, no heaven I will never know that as a fact.
My question to you and anyone else, since I have lived a happy full, content life because I believe in and trust God, and die and that is all there is too it what have I lost?
Be specific about what you think I have lost.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by AZPaul3, posted 06-29-2020 11:52 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2020 8:38 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 07-02-2020 10:42 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 154 of 220 (878577)
07-01-2020 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by AZPaul3
06-29-2020 11:52 PM


Re: AZ
Hi AZ,
AZ writes:
I say you accept what you believe by faith as you have zero evidence for either having occurred as you believe they did.
That is way wrong.
Why do you say it is way wrong? Working on my book now so give me your best answer.
AZ writes:
I do not know how the universe began nor do I know how life began.
According to the standard Big Bang model, the universe was born during a period of inflation that began about 13.8 billion years ago.
How many assumptions is necessary to support that statement?
1 It must be assumed that the universe was formed from nothing according to the laws of science.
2. It must be assumed that whatever produced the universe did not exist at T=0 but it did exist at T=0-44 and was expanding faster than the now known speed of light.
Proposed fixes for the problem of something from nothing.
Hartley/Hawkins proposed an instanton which requires a vacuum to pop into existence. So to believe that being the fix you have to assume the vacuum existed when there was nothing as there is nothing outside of the universe.
Jel Scherk and John Henry Schwarz were the first to propose string theory.
The strings require space to exist in order for the strings to exist and bang together. So to believe strings are the answer you have to assume space existed outside of the universe.
3. Without knowing how the universe began to exist that means there is no theory of how the universe began to exist. If you don't know nor can you put forth any ideas without making many more assumptions. That means everything that is being taught today is based on assumptions.
What is an assumption. a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.
To believe anything without proof is called faith.
I examine the evidence I have for the existence of God and assume that information is the best evidence I have to base a decision on.
AZ writes:
In the absence of a preponderance I can only go where the present evidence logically points.
For someone who has a enough evidence to come to a decision you have a hard time presenting it to someone who has their own present evidence.
AZ writes:
There is not enough evidence to conclude what/how the beginnings of life proceeded but the evidence we do have indicates that it most probably came from natural chemical interactions.
The most logical answer would be the life on earth was produced by life.
Just like the most logical answer would be that the universe was formed by an eternal everlasting energy source.
AZ writes:
Replication, the start of what most would call life, appears from the evidence we do have to be nothing more than a set of chemical reactions in a repetitious cycle.
What lifeform on earth was created by chemical reactions?
AZ writes:
No need for faith in any of this. I accept the natural explanations,
You accept what has been assumed to be the truth, and call them natural explanations.
Actually you are not thinking you are letting other people think for you.
AZ writes:
I have never been so off my nut that I have experienced anything, or known of anything viably reliable, that was not a natural physical phenomenon. Psychochemical stimulants exempted, of course.
I have no doubt that you have never even considered anything that you were not taught from an infant until this day.
AZ writes:
I have no need of faith. I have reality.
You only have faith.
You won't and don't accept reality.
Reality life produces life.
Reality Energy produces matter and mass.
The mass of the universe requires a huge source of energy to produce the universe. Science has no such energy source. Everything is produced from something imaginary. Or that is assumed to exist.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by AZPaul3, posted 06-29-2020 11:52 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 155 of 220 (878589)
07-02-2020 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by AZPaul3
07-01-2020 8:38 PM


Re: AZ
Hi AZ
AZ writes:
I have no doubt that you are a kind and caring man. What I doubt is that your faith, your desire to live a life as Jesus would, is what made you that way.
My wife accuses me of giving away everything I have ever made so she would agree with you. We do have enough left to last us another 20 years and I doubt either of us will make a 100.
Actually I believe I am what I am today because I loved to read books. My mom and dad separated when I was 2 years old I spent a year and half years with my mother in Niagara Falls NY.I attended the 7th grade there and was introduced to advanced teaching methods. I started my speed reading class only able to read 285 words a minute with 30% retention. At the end of the year I could read 1500 words per minute with 74% retention. That summer I came back to Florida. Since I had a hour and half bus ride to school I read 1 to 2 books going each way with my English teacher picking out the books for me to read. We had no TV or any of the other distractions so if I did not have chores on the farm I read Saturday and Sunday. My grandparents were in their mid 70's my uncles and dad to wild to go to church so I was not raised in church. But I made an early decision from my reading secular books that what I read from the Bible sounded most logical to me. My dad was saved when I was 22 years old.
AZ writes:
I submit you were always that man, would have been that man regardless of what religion or none entered your soul and you would have been just as happy and fulfilled in your life.
My mother was an acholic and we drank together when I lived with her. I never got drunk and could drink like a fish. I loved whiskey as I had drank moonshine from the time I was 3 years old. After a year and half living in Niagara Falls experimenting with all kinds of crazy stuff we had back then I decided I had to get back to Florida. I took my last drink in 1962 and can still taste it today simply by thinking about it. So no I would have probably been the biggest drunk if I could have got enough whiskey to make me drunk, in the world. I kept reading the Bible and our founding fathers papers and other people's problems and decided in my mind I would not be like my mother or other people I would just be me. I have been working on that since 1962.
I am far from perfect, and unless what I read in the Bible is true I will never be perfect. But I read in the Bible where God can and will make me perfect by forgiving all my sins. Then one day give me a new body that does not sin and at a later time He will erase all the bad memories from my mind. Thus I would be a perfect being just like the man God formed from the dust of the ground creating a perfect being.
AZ writes:
What you miss out on in being a religious nutter is the true wonder, the true beauty, the true freedom of this universe.
Man I have not missed out on anything. I see that you will never behold in your present state. I have sat on the sea shore in Little Cayman and looked into the heavens through clear clean air making the heavens so big and bright that I felt I could reach up and touch the stars. Where I live now on a clear night I can probably see a couple of hundred stars. In the Cayman's I could see millions they seemed to be so close together you could not stick your finger between them. I have been 1,000 feet down in the clear water surrounding the Cayman Islands. There is another world of critters down there. Some of the most beautiful creatures I have ever seen.
AZ writes:
You have your universe made for you. Let there be poof! and it is there.
Where did you get that idea from. You sure did not get it from reading my posts. In fact I am beginning to think you have never read any of my posts. Oh you look at them and pick out things you want to berate me on. This message I am responding too seems to be a little different.
Back to your "poof". I have never said God poofed the universe into existence.
1. I believe the universe has always existed in some form just not in the form we see it today.
2. I believe somewhere in the past God began creating the universe and then He began to create the earth.
3. Yet I believe He created the heavens and the earth in one light period.
God gave us the definition of a day in Genesis 1:5.
quote:
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
God called the light day. Day equals a light period.
You might ask how long was this light period? All I know is it lasted from the beginning until darkness had come over the earth we find at Genesis 1:2
So I think there was enough light to create the CMB we see today without a big bang.
I have asked numerous times here and other places how the oil was produced that is in the ground. Over 4 trillion barrels which takes 98 tons of decayed matter to produce 1 gallon of oil.
1 barrel equals 42 gallons
1 barrel of oil requires 4,116 tons of decayed matter which equals 1.6464e+16
or if you prefer 16,464 trillion tons.
All that material had to be buried under up to 5 miles of dirt and rock over eons. So in the early stages the earth was a lot smaller than it is today. As the earth produced vegetation then it would get bombarded by material from space. Vegetation grew bombarded by material from space over and over again until the material to produce the oil we have in the earth today was buried.
AZ writes:
You have your universe made for you. Let there be poof! and it is there. Mine is a so much grander a creation. Bigger than any one god and built without majik, without someone’s will or dictate or plan. Just nature, left to her own processes, unplanned, without guide or purpose. You miss out on the wonder, the sheer audacity of what this universe has become on its own accord. The real magic is not in some god’s majik poof but in the boundless wondrous creations of a free and volatile nature.
You are simply confusing what God did with your nature.
AZ writes:
Related to the above are other decisions. Those of family, politics, society. Again, do you let millennia old mores of ancient peoples past dictate who you befriend and who you abhor? Do you harden your heart because the ancient priests say you must? Do you pick and choose which physics and sciences to embrace based on myths in ancient books? Are you free to embrace new human freedoms where your ancient priests counseled disgust and ostracism?
How do you harden your heart? All it is and does is pump blood. It don't think or make decisions. That is done in the mind.
And no I am a free thinker. I don't believe anything I hear, and very little of what I see.
AZ writes:
How can you trust a man whose mind is so weak he has to be told what to think? Our species history is filled to the brim with bad disastrous decisions made based on religious considerations instead of the reality of the universe around us. Even today pastors ignore the science of reality citing their god’s powers while their parishioners die gasping in the ICU.
Why do you believe what you are told? You sure don't have evidence that supports what you believe and speak.
Apparently you have never studied my Bible or the things I believe. As I actually believe in reality your believe in your fairy tale you have been brain washed with.
AZ writes:
It could have been so much more fulfilling without the religious handicap.
What about my religious beliefs do you think has handicapped me?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2020 8:38 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 160 of 220 (878618)
07-02-2020 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Phat
07-02-2020 6:25 AM


Re: AZ, Ringo Et Al
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
shall we?
Anytime.
But I love boiled peanuts.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Phat, posted 07-02-2020 6:25 AM Phat has not replied

  
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